2)The cosmos began to exist.
3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being. (God)
Arguments?
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
I agree with what you said. From there on I am a bit of a deist. The Universe has scientific principles which govern it. Anyone who studies Biology can see the macrocosm in the microcosm. Each system is interdependent, and keeps the other systems in check within certain parameters.
And that is my little Unified Theory.
“We must jump up and down and down, and around and around.”
- Tori Amos
That the universe came into existence is not evidence as to the identity of the causative agent. Defining God as the causative agent of the universe and then using the universe as evidence of God is circular.
shrug Works for me. Helps me sleep at night. Never said it had to work for you.
“We must jump up and down and down, and around and around.”
- Tori Amos
Whatever exists began to exist at some specified point in time.
God exists.
Therefore, God began to exist at some specified point in time.
Whatever began at some specified point in time has a cause for its coming into being.
5)God began to exist at a specified point in time.
6)Therefore, God has a cause for its coming into being.
Arguments?
False, according to current scientific experiments. An electron and anti-electron have been shown to pop out of nowhere with absolutely no discernable cause.
Are you speaking of the universe, i.e. everything that exists? If so, we have no proof that the universe has not always existed, and is not going through a boom-and-bust period of big bang/big crunch.
If all things that exist cannot have always existed, then God would have had to begin to exist, and therefore by your logic (which is flawed, as I pointed out above) would need a creator. The difference between an always existing or spontaneously appearing universe and an always existing or spontaneously appearing God is that we have far more evidence that the Universe exists.
Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her.
Dad Kunilou (a committed agnostic) would put it this way.
"I do not believe that the universe was created by random chance. There had to be a creator.
“However, even if there WERE a creator, there is nothing to prove or disprove that it was an all-powerful God or that it continued to exist once its job was done.”
I understand all the words, they just don’t make sense together like that.
kunilou, I love that, it is so true.
There are so many things that we puny humans cannot know, the way things are now. There are so many possibilities, and some are possibilities so alien to us that we are incapable of even concieving them.
We all need to start thinking outside the grooves and discovering new ways of percieving things, new ways of piecing together the evidence we have, new methods of interpretation.
Ways of dreaming up things that seem impossible now.
The origin of the Universe is a great jumping-off point.
I disagree. Everything that does exist NECESSARILY must have been caused to exist. But caused by what? Beyond everything there is, there cannot be nothing. That would mean that reality is base on nothing - absurd. So then, there must be something that is uncaused, and that something is that which everything else is dependent. Our existence, everything’s existence, was started, necessarily by something that was uncaused. God.
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Your argument doesn’t flow logically. See my reply to Otto.
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
A questionable assumption. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it’s definitely questionable. As mentioned earlier, quantum mechanics can certainly be interpreted as refuting that statement; and quantum mechanics is verywell established.
If you can’t conceive of something coming into being without a causative agent, that’s not proof that it cannot happen.
Since your initial premise is not a reasonable axiom, the conclusions from that premise are also suspect.
Now, please note that I’m not claiming you’re wrong. I kind of suspect that you’re wrong, but I have no proof. I’m just saying that your logical “proof” is flawed.
jrf
Oh, and one more thing; if nothing can come into being without a causative agent, where did God come from? Or do you beleive she’s an exception to the rule?
jrf
Why must everything that exists have a cause for its origins?
pashley, given that my premise #1 is correct, my argument is exactly as logical as yours, since my steps 4-6 are your steps 1-3, and my steps 1-3 are your steps 1-3 restated. Each statment follows naturally from the statement before. So either your argument is also illogical (which it could easily be); or both of our arguments are logical but only one is correct.
So far so good, as far as it goes, as long as it applies equally to any posited creator, but I have a feeling you’re about to offer yourself an out.
And there it is. 
“Necessarily”? I certainly question that premise, as well as the premise that, if there is something uncaused, it cannot be the Universe itself as opposed to a creator.
[paraphrase]
Everything that exists must have had a cause.
That cause is God.
God doesn’t have to follow rule 1 because that would lead to uncomfortable thoughts.
Arguments that follow the form of mine but question the primacy of god are flawed.
[/paraphrase]
My comment?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Again, see my post to Otto, if you believe something can come from nothing. You even say “no discernable cause”, from which you, in error, jump to the conclusion that there * is no cause.*
As for your second argument, that the universe always was, well, that’s not what astrophysicists are espousing vis-a-vis the Big Bang theory.
Your last point is my favorite.
The first point, about a creator for God, is the infinite regress theory.
Everything that exists is in space and time; we take up space, we move thru time. Things that are material (matter) are affected. You are, at least partially, made of material. This means you are finite, limited and changing being, for matter is a principle of limitation and change. Because you have limitations, you are dependent upon other things for your existence, such as air and water. If I take that away, surely you will change (die). You exist if something else is exists.
But not everything can be like this. If it was, nothing would be able to cause the existence of something else. So, there must be something that does not exist conditionally; something which exists in itself. Since all things in this world are material, this “something” must necessarily exist outside of this world.
Guess who?
Your last, uh, point, suggests that since we cannot put God in a beaker, He cannot be. But if you see the above argument that He exists outside of our realm, you’ll know why, or you should.
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Your logic states that God needed a creator. So who created God?
(I wonder who will be the first here to anser that with “Man.”)
Yer pal,
Satan
http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
One week, three days, 18 hours, 58 minutes and 20 seconds.
431 cigarettes not smoked, saving $53.95.
Life saved: 1 day, 11 hours, 55 minutes.
Spiritus, if you don’t have anything worthwhile to say, please don’t. I believe the Cartoon Channel in you area is Ch. 51
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Patrick Ashley
“For those who believe, no evidence is necessary; for those who don’t believe, no evidence is enough.” -Unknown
Well, you’ve convinced me. I now firmly believe not only that God exists, but that this God is the particular Christian God who floods the world when He has a temper tantrum and murders babies to help His friends and will torture us forever if we don’t sing songs to Him once a week.
So how do we go about defeating this evil being?