Respectfully, that’s complete bullshit. Take a good look at the map of the Middle East. Blaming the problems of the Middle East on Israel is like blaming the problems of the United States on Rhode Island. The rot runs much deeper than that. The Arab world is sitting on huge quantities of valuable natural resources, and if they are poor, it’s because they allow themselves to be run by tribal kleptocracies and be hobbled by medieval interpretations of their religious beliefs that prevent them from joining the modern world. Meanwhile, the governments of the Middle Eastern countries avoid scrutiny of their egregious corruption and pillaging by blaming Israel and the US for all their problems, and the people and guppies like yourself lap it up.
Israel’s population comes from Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, as much as it does from “the west”.
I sometimes wondered about similar issues. Say a dozen people living in a couple houses declaring their independance. I concluded that in order to be pragmactical, the people asking for their independance should represent a somehow coherent and significantly large group. And that one would have to decide on a case by case basis.
But honestly, I don’t have an answer about a large group of similarily-minded people moving in some more or less uninhabited part of their own country and asking their independance. Though weirdly enough, I had sometimes a similar daydream : of me and other like-minded people moving to some remote place and founding our own independant mini-state, where we wouldn’t have to cope with things we dissaprove.
Sometimes, I also wondered if, with the cultural difference fading away, and with the progress of globalization, easier communications, we won’t come to such a situation, where people will give more importance and feel more loyalty for groups they share the value of than for nation-states, and won’t begin to ask to handle their their own businesses in their own ways instead of being subjected to old geographically-based entities.
But honestly, though I find this hypothetical interesting, I don’t have any well-thought opinion or answer to your question.
But in what proportion respectively? Though I was assuming that for instance by “Africa” you meant the Falachas, while you could be including the Sepharads from north-Africa…On a third thought, didn’t the Ashkenazis more or less imposed their views in Israel, considering for a long time the Sepharads as second-class Israelis, hence didn’t they, as a consequence, create a culturally westernized israel?
Anyway, Israel was founded by western Jews. And I would think it is perceived as made of western people, having western values and backed by western countries. Not only in the Arab world, but in the western world as well. That’s why I wrote above that Israelis are considered by western people as being “like us”, which result in much more interest in Israel that it would in another nation in a similar situation but which wouldn’t be perceived as closely linked to the western world.
Read the following report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2082872.stm
Do you really seriously believe that half of all Arab women are illiterate because Israel exists? :rolleyes: Do you also really seriously believe that the Arab world is poor?
You’re right you know. It DOES sound crazy.
Less “convenient” than just plain accurate.
It seems to need repeating fairly often, but there are many people who find criticizing Israel provides a socially acceptable front for their bigotry. Lacking an ability to look into the minds of everyone who has an opinion on this subject, I can only say that many people who harshly criticize Israel without any indications of balance are, in fact, anti-Semitic bigots. And the more one-sided and virulent they are, the greater the likelihood that they are bigots.
One needs to look no further than the SDMB for evidence to back this up. There have been a number of fervent anti-Israel advocates who could not refrain from indulging in out-and-out bigotry, and so “outed” themselves. For others with black-and-white perspectives who keep strictly within the framework of Mideast policy, the issue remains in doubt.
Cites on request. If you must.
Lacking this mind-reading ability, then, how would you know? I asked in my previous post : what percentage of people criticizing Israel are antisemitic? How would you establish it? Why couldn’t I say the same about people criticizing Mugabe?
Yes. I must. But a cite like linking to a post where one person who criticized Israel also made antisemitic statements won’t be enough. Or else I similarily could point out at a “comite France-Palestine” existing in my neighborhood which is headed by a Rabbi, harsher about Israel policies than most of what is posted here (I’ve no much doubt he would be accused of antisemitism if he were to post here without mentionning his position) as an equally valid anecdotal evidence. I would need some proof that a significant part of the people criticizing Israel are antisemitic. Or else, I’ve no reason not to believe it’s a mere assumption on your part, and a convenient strawman. Or even a way to deter more timid people who could not dare criticizing Israel out of fear of being labelled as antisemitic. There’s such an accusation essentially each time there’s a thread about Israel, and we’re rather in a tolerant environment, here.
More generally, there’s no reason to make such an assumption barring evidences it is true, since it’s a gratuitous accusation which could be constructed as a libel. A lot of people will resent more being called “antisemitic” than “morons”. And I would even say that a criticism coming from an antisemit doesn’t cease for this reason to be valid. So, arguments should be answered to on the basis of their merits, and mentionning “it might have been written by an antisemit” doesn’t make the case of the person stating so. It doesn’t disprove the argument, hence is pointless, and it doesn’t bring any proof of the accusation, hence is gratuitous.
No, the comparison is with the response of the Israeli govt, which depends not on the offence or the location, but instead depends on the ethnicity of the victims and the perpetrators.
Contrary to what was suggested, the IDF doesn’t respond with bulldozers to “terrorism.” Rather it reserves that response for non-Israelis only, punitively and maliciously as its position is that jewish Israelis are inherently more valuable and correspondingly other persons are less deserving of protection by the govt.
So we are clear on where we stand.
Fine. Here are multiple examples of posters who’ve been virulently anti-Israel and spouted anti-Semitic rhetoric.
Here’s a classic example of a poster who was anti-Israel and obsessed with the evils of Jews.
Yet another on the subject of how Jews and Israel threaten our very existence.
And another venting on Israel and then on how Jews plot to control everything.
And last but not least, the venomous anti-Israel poster who plagiarized his rantings about how Jews Control The Media from a racist/white supremacist website, and also falsely accused multiple Jewish posters of believing that Judaism values the lives of Jews above all others.
Apologies to others whom I’ve likely forgotten (the foolishly overt ones tend to get banned).
You should remember these people. Your name pops up in some of the threads.
Speaking of strawmen…you’re invited to demonstrate a single instance where an SDMB poster was labeled an anti-Semite simply for being critical of Israeli policy.
Regarding your dubious Mugabe analogy: Show me a bunch of examples where people here foamed at the mouth about Mugabe and then revealed themselves to be racists, and you’ll be a little closer to having a point.*
*exactly what point is difficult to say - unless you think one example of using using an issue as a front for bigotry somehow excuses another.
Yes, your many balanced and unbiased posts on Israel have made it very clear where you stand, and in my opinion, it’s a particularly fetid swamp.
Bulldozing the houses of terrorists is designed to have a deterrent effect. Given that there is no continuing pattern of Israeli citizens committing mass murder on Palestinians, I don’t see why such a deterrent would have been called for. However, if your contention is that Israel took no action after this incident, you are incorrect. As this UN document indicates, the Israeli government condemned the massacre in the harshest terms, * paid compensation to the families of the victims *, outlawed several rightwing activist groups, held a full inquiry to make sure that Baruch Goldstein acted alone, and appointed an international committee to insure the future security of Palestinians in the city of Hebron. (Search for the string “Steps taken by the Israeli authorities” in th above link.)
Compare this reaction and the horror felt by the majority of Israeli citizens with the open celebrations by the Palestinians after a successful terrorist attack.
by Jackmannii
This may in fact be true, but to label someone an Anti-Semite just because they are not pro-Israel is unjustifiable. The large preponderance of Zionists who are quick to levy those kind of accusations probably make it more difficult for fence-sitters to get onboard the Israel team. Instead of actually defending Israel’s actions, all we get from them are ad hominem attacks. No cogent arguments, no appropos analogies. Just useless name calling.
Until an individual who is expressing disapproval with Israel produces evidence of anti-semitism, its best to leave the term alone. It is rather underhanded to suggest a person is against Jews just because they disagree with another country’s policies. Kind of like hinting that somebody is a unpatriotic just because they dislike Bush.
It ain’t cool.
Have my sympathies for your difficulties with truth.
That’s it then, we agree, the ethnicity of the terrorist in question is the decisive factor, not the quality of the offense.
Not my contention at all. They took immediate and grave steps to exact collective punishments against the relatives of the victims. Further the policy clarified in the public mind that Israel recognises two classes of person: Non-Jews who are subject to excessive, collective and arbitrary punishments: and Jews, who enjoy the full protection of the law and military and need not answer for their crimes, as others must .
:smack:
Your strawman is starting to resemble the Michelin Man.
Currently, the population of Israel is, by origin, 20% non Jewish (mostly Arab), 32% European/American born, 21% Israeli born, 14.5% Africa born, and 12.5% Asia born. That’s from here:
http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/wmd/ep/country/isrdemo.htm
I don’t have any info on the ethnicity of the sabras.
Points taken, but would you agree that zionism causes regional instability which prevents economic development? If they would simply quit Iraq and implement the Geneva Accords there would be a sharp decrease in terrorism and an economic boom in the region, the black areas of Africa also have great natural resources especially oil and diamonds, it is richer than the middles east, but that in itself cannot spur economic development…
like all formulae, oversimple, but perhaps:
Anti-zionists consider Israel a puppet of the United States;
Anti-semites consider the United States a pupped of Israel.
Sinful:
No. Care to demonstrate how the existence of Zionism in Israel somehow deprives the residents of the various Arab states of economic opportunity?
Israel isn’t even in Iraq.
But these are the sort of ridiculous things that anti-Zionists blame on Israel.
You shouldn’t have taken the pain of searching for these examples. I did not doubt that you could find some, and that’s precisely why I stated that I wasn’t interested in anecdotal evidences, but in evidences that a significant number of people criticizing Israel are antisemitic.
Ok. They aren’t directly called antisemitic. But :
1)Then, if posters criticizing Israel aren’t assumed to be antisemitic, what is the point of mentionning that plenty of people criticizing Israel are doing so motivated by antisemitism? Why it is relevant if if it’s not hinting at the opposing side being presumably a bunch of antisemites? This accusation apears in most threads related to Israel.
2)Even when posters aren’t directly caled antisemites, it’s frequently hinted at in a not so subtle way. When I’m asked “What have the Jews done to you?” what should I understand apart from : “Why are you hating the Jews”?
I couldn’t give a bunch of such examples, especially since I rarely remember who said what on this board, though I clearly remember one who did exactly that one year ago or so (criticizing Zimbabwe and then going on stating that Africans were way much better off when ruled by white people or somesuch) . Do you seriously doubt that such people exist?
But my point was rather that such accusations are made by Mugabe, because they’re convenient to dismiss criticisms. Stating without evidences that most people formulating some argument against Israel are antisemites doesn’t make the argument go away. It can only be a mean to avoid having to responding to it or to demonizing one’s opponent. Why exactly has it been mentionned in this thread like in so many others?
But as I have said previously, using reprisals against a criminal’s family hasn’t been considered as proper justice for some centuries.
Even assuming it’s efficient, it doesn’t make it any more right. There are plenty of efficient methods of deterence which aren’t considered acceptable nowadays (say, torture, reprisals on the civil population, etc…).
Hmmm…I would have expected a much higher %age of Israelis born in Israel, by now…Only 20% seems a very low number. This seriously diminish in my mind the legitimacy of the presence in Israel of a large part of the population. I’m now wondering when the other 60% immigrated, how long they have been there, the equivalent of what percentage of the population is currently immigrating each year, etc…