The dangerous politics of Medicare For All

I think the flaw in the OP lies in the also-flawed phrase “Cadillac health plan”. Obviously it signifies the most expensive health plan. But a Cadillac is (or was) a Veblen-type good, one whose consumption rises with a price increase because of its exclusivity. So long as people get to go to a decent doctor, most of them aren’t going to complain that they aren’t going to the most expensive doctor in the state. Nor will they fret about the status of going to a less expensive doctor.

I suppose you could argue that relative wealth is a factor here. I tend to think not, because here again it’s a convoluted task to value the wealth factor of an insurance plan. Like clearly a $0 deductible is obviously better than a $10,000 deductible, but the valuation depends on many contingencies like whether you consume that much care in a year, and what your premiums are.

If there is a hazard here it will be the same as any other social program. “Look what X ethnic group is getting for free, while I’m paying for mine!” (or - “I paid my own X for years and now they’re giving it away for free”). That’s a legit issue, but if we navigated it for benefits like welfare and social security, we ought to be able to solve it for healthcare.

LOL, I hear what you are saying but none of us represents an official Democratic Party organ or anything. And a candidate can easily (and definitely should) disavow this kind of talk as necessary. But there are too many Democratic primary voters here (and everywhere) who don’t seem to understand the importance of having a nominee who appeals to these sorts of swing voters, so I can’t in good conscience not talk about these strategic points.

Social Security was not means tested for this reason (by any logical and ethical standard it ought to be). And the Great Society triggered a backlash that lasted for decades. But my point is that I think enough people are OK with providing some sort of basic healthcare plan to people who don’t have anything. They just don’t want everyone, including them, to get the same thing. That is true whether it means going down a little bit so that many others go up (the worst case scenario politically) or even if everyone goes up but they are no longer superior to others.

Why would it be so awful to just create a public option, instead of putting everyone on the same plan? I know it’s not as efficient, but it’s such massively better politics.

I will add an anecdote that does not necessarily reflect terribly well on me, but is illustrative of the psychology I am talking about. At the place where I got my IVAPS machine, the woman in charge of billing pulled up my insurance and exclaimed “Wow, you have such a low deductible! I wish mine was this low.” I have to admit, I took a lot of satisfaction out of that. And I never really thought “oh it’s too bad she doesn’t have the same thing: I wish everyone did”. Instead, I felt that little frisson of satisfaction you get when everyone is envious that you have a nicer car or TV or whatever then they do. It’s not pretty, but it’s human nature and we have to take it into account.

ETA: And rereading what I just wrote, I can’t help but have a feeling of pride, like “hey, awesome: now all these people on the board know I have great insurance”. It’s ridiculous, it’s petty, it’s awful really, but it’s psychologically very powerful.

My own anecdote is that it doesn’t make me feel anything to know you have good insurance. Mine is good enough, I don’t envy your unnecessary MRI overconsumption.

My mother might feel resentment that you can smoke as many cigarettes as you want, knowing you can easily afford the lung transplant. To me that seems more like a neurotic edge case than a wellspring of politically exploitable resentment, but again it’s dueling opinions about what other people think.

I mean… the big healthcare-related resentment Obamacare faced was “you can’t make me get no goldarn insurance! I’ll get sick if I feel like it!” This makes me think healthcare envy is a lot less potent than you seem to think.

I don’t think that the positional aspect is as big of a deal as some of you do. I really don’t know or care what my neighbor’s health care plan covers. And if he claims it covers daily massages or something, I’m just going to think he’s lying.

But there are a still a lot of economic irrationalities going on. Take my former “Cadillac” plan. (I don’t really like that term, it colors the debate by implying a massive difference in QUALITY of care that doesn’t really exist. I prefer “car that always works and takes you wherever you want to go plan”)

I picked it up for the one year because I knew I had two upcoming surgeries. But this plan made absolutely no rational sense for anyone, because the premimum was over $150 a month more than the plan with the $2000 deductible. So really, all I was doing was paying the deductible over the course of a year, whether I used it or not. This plan made absolutely no rational sense.

But when I was deciding whether to get therapy, it made a difference. When I was deciding whether to see a doctor now or wait a week, it made a difference.

When that “first dollar” ordinary care was, in effect, prepaid - I was determined to use it whether I really needed it or not. I was making a cost benefit decision but the cost was not based on the value of the service I was receiving. It was an artificially low copay that could be described as practically nothing. So I didn’t have to perceive much benefit in order to decide to consume the service.

But when I knew the visit meant I’d be writing a $200 check at some point, I made the cost -benefit decisions of a rational consumer, and often decided to use the money for something that would give me a greater benefit.

But the medical establishment has conditioned us to believe that it is wrong to make rational cost benefit decisions with regards to our health. We are taught that it is wrong to even consider cost when it comes to the matter of our health and that we are risking our lives, livelihood and futures if we don’t have immediate access the most advanced and effective treatment for even minor ailments, cost be damned.
So don’t try to treat that rash with an OTC cream for a week or so first, head to the dermatologist for a $350 consult and a tube of $200 prescription cream NOW! Doing anything else is like playing Russian Roulette with your HEALTH! Money should not be a factor (and, of course ,someone else should pay the bill.)

I had an actual turning point with regards to this attitude. I have told this story before on this forum. Several years ago, my right ear canal was chronically itchy. My doctor ruled out disease and infection and gave me a prescription for an ear drop. This was not a dangerous issue. It was not at risk of spreading or becoming more serious. It was not a symptom of something larger. It was strictly a comfort issue.

I filled that prescription dutifully for months, paying my $15 copay every time. Then there was some sort of insurance glitch and in the process of straightening it out, I discovered my insurer was paying around $200 for each .5 oz bottle of ear drops. I looked at the eardrop bottle. The active ingredients were hydrocortisone and acetic acid (white vinegar).

I refused to fill the prescription anymore. I told my doctor I was going to buy a dropper bottle, a bottle of white vinegar and a tube of hydrocortisone cream and mix up about 10 grand worth of ear drops in my kitchen. She was fine with it.

So I became a rebel of sorts. Every time I filled a prescription I insisted on knowing the real cost, not just my copay. And sometimes I wouldn’t fill it. And since then I have tried, as much as possible within our fucked-up health care system, to make rational cost benefit decisions with regards to my own health.
It’s an exercise in futility but I do it anyway.

So your suggestion is we all pick the candidate who lies about standing for the “I’ve got mine” folks, but who, when they get elected, says “gotcha ya!” and turns their back on them?

How do you suggest we differentiate between the people who are lying about being selfish and short-sighted and those who truly are? And how is it that the selfish and short-sighted swing voters are going to be fooled while the rest of us aren’t?

It is to some extent, in that if your income is high enough, SocSec becomes taxable.

No, you have to make sure everyone is in the pool. Now, if everyone pays, but some want more and will pay more, that’s fine. But everyone has to pay in.

Really? Did you actually think Obama was sincere in 2004 with the “there are no red states or blue states” schtick? I didn’t, but I liked it because I knew the swing voter rubes would eat it up with a spoon.

Of course electoral strategy must hinge on either/or calculations, but did you ever see him treat red and blue states different in actual governing decisions? I saw nothing remotely comparable to, say, Donald Trump flattering states who support him and menacing those who defy him.

Nice. :rolleyes:

:smiley:

Sorry for the delay in responding. I’ve been on the bubble at the Soylent Centre, but I’ve been renewed for another five years. Yay me!

Let me get all “Bill Clinton-y”: it depends what the meaning of “premium” is.

:slight_smile:

In the two provinces that charge “premiums” (Ontario and BC), they are means-tested. Only individuals who have incomes over a certain amount are required to pay the “premiums”. And, everyone gets access to the same health care, whether they pay “premiums” or not. Heck, even if you’re required to pay “premiums” and you fail to do so, you get the exact same coverage.

Contrast that with the private insurers in the States: if someone applies for coverage to a private insurer and says “I don’t have the money to pay the premiums but you’re required by law to give me coverage,” would the insurance company give them coverage?

Or, if you’re someone who has a private plan, and then you just stop paying premiums, will the insurance company keep you enrolled?

The government health plans in Canada use the language of insurance for reasons I don’t understand, but it’s not really an insurance plan. It’s a public service, just like roads and public schools and police, and the “premiums” are just a fancy name for an income-progressive tax.

Again, need to be clear in terminology when comparing different systems. Quite true: Canada’s system does not cover every health care need. The big ones that aren’t covered are drugs, dental and vision, as you mentioned.

But if something isn’t part of the public health system, it’s not a deductible or a co-pay, if by that you mean that you have to pay it as part of your coverage. You’re paying for something that isn’t covered by your plan. That’s not a deductible or a co-pay, since it’s not tied to your insurance plan.

If a tree falls on your house and your insurance adjuster says “Tree damage isn’t covered by your policy, you’ll have to pay it all yourself,” that’s not a deductible or a co-pay on your insurance. That’s something that’s not covered by the plan.

The Canadian system was implemented to cover doctor’s treatments and hospital treatment. That’s the public Medicare, and deductibles and co-pays for those covered services are prohibited by the Canada Health Act.

No, although I hope the next Democratic president is less ecumenical. I don’t think they should blatantly go out of their way to stick it to red states, but implementing policies that will tend to benefit blue states more sounds good to me. I am tired of red states being by and large net drains on the Treasury while complaining their taxes are too high.

Presidents should be ecumenical for the straightforward practical reason that they have, at best, very limited control over the legislative agenda, while the legislature has a great deal of control over the President’s governing agenda.

I agree with the transactional principles outlined here. But this also depends on an airtight supermajority. i.e. if you say “fuck Kansas”, don’t expect Kansas to help out on your SCOTUS pick.

Also the more troubling aspect that many red states are only red because Republican governers and secretaries of state are colluding to steal votes via voter suppression, oppressive felony-voter laws, gerrymanderying, strategic prison locations.

It seems very unprincipled to fuck over your allies just because they live in states that suppress their votes.

I think we are mainly talking about black voters in the Deep South, right? I have advocated for years that they move to more hospitable states, and that maybe left-leaning billionaires could help them do so. This suggestion was roundly mocked, but to me it is not just political but moral: a less extreme version of helping Jews get out of the Third Reich in the 1930s.

ETA: Strategic prison locations?

There are lots of reasons to oppose this, but the biggest one is that this assumes red states are always going to be adversaries. If that’s true, then we don’t need to drain them of political opposition. In fact we should be doing the opposite.

I didn’t know a shorter way to fit this cleanly into a subordinate clause, but red states are trying to get as many prisons and prisoners as they can, because incarcerated prisoners count for political representation, but they can’t vote. For representatives, that translates to more power with less exposure to election risk. It’s like the 3/5 compromise but worse.

Gotcha.

Yeah, red states can’t incarcerate their minority populations faster than those groups can grow as a proportion of the electorate. Three southern red states are on the verge of proving that.

Wait, “doing the opposite” as in encouraging black folks to move into what for them could be an oppressive hellhole?

Not their own populations, but from other states. They attract private prisons who are expected to bid on interstate incarceration contracts. Then they pass/strengthen laws against inmates voting, while passing laws requiring that those inmates count the same as residents for representation purposes. It is quite a bold scam.

Pew trust article if you want to learn more about that.