The debate--were any minds changed?

Great Debates
41

I don’t honestly see how anyone who has followed this election can possibly be undecided. If you are undecided, then you haven’t been paying attention much. So my premise is that the undecideds don’t know much if anything about the candidates beyond the notion that McCain has lot of experience and a rich wife, and Obama is black and went to a church with a nut job preacher.

This debate played on every OTA network during prime time. For voters that don’t follow politics, this may be the first time they have seen Obama speak at length.

Those voters did NOT see a young black thug beating up on an old white guy. They saw an articulate, thoughtful, reasonable, respectful, PRESIDENTIAL man contrasted with a snickering, wisecracking, disrepectful, story-telling asshole.

The crap McCain pulled pisses off the progressives, and warms the hearts of the Dittoheads. That Obama let it slide feels to progressives like we got sand kicked in our faces. And that is why progressives are granting a mild win to McCain. As much as I would have liked to have seen Obama wipe the floor with McCain, What Obama DID do probably did more to sway independants than what he could well have done if he’d had a mind to.

42

Still voting for Obama, but was not impressed by his performance. He was way too nice and let McCain off the hook numerous times. I presumed that based on his brilliant speeches he would be a master debater. Not the case.

43

Dunno what “Primacare” is frankly.

I was between jobs and my COBRA had lapsed. I jumped off a wall, in the dark, wearing dress shoes (read no cushion) and the drop was further than I anticipated/slash I am older then when I made those jumps when I was young. Yep…stupid and I know it. Long story why I did it not relevant here.

I forget what they called it but essentially I bruised both heels between the bone and muscle. I awoke the next morning, stood up and collapsed. The pain was pretty spectacular. I literally had to crawl around the house. I figured it’d just go away but my family (who I was supposed to meet for brunch but couldn’t) insisted a trip to the hospital. My brother came over with his friend and they quite literally carried me down 4 flights to the car and took me to the Emergency Room.

There I had blood work (dunno why, guess it was routine or something) and multiple x-rays of both heels. In the end they told me the name of the condition, said I’d live and sold me a pair of crutches and sent me home with pain meds to wait it out (took about a week to recover enough to get off crutches).

Dunno why you got a better deal than I did except to say I had no insurance so was lucky to get the full price service. Final tally was somewhat over $3000. This was two or so years ago.

As noted I still do not understand an average number for this and how it is remotely relevant. The moment anyone actually needs hospital care that $5000 is not even a drop in the bucket. One serious anything for a hospital trip and you’ll spend that $5000 before they wheel you to a room.

44

Yeah, man, you’re right. Those fascist pricks at the Washington Post have a lot of balls. Let them eat cake, eh? Power to the people! Down with the Post, those reactionary fuckers! They just don’t understand, like Obama does.

You are simply going to put your fingers in your ears and ignore the very next sentence I pointed out to you, aren’t you? Here. I’ll try again:

You can take this as your cue to spout another non sequitur about how all I care about is myself, and I’d actually rather see uninsured people suffer–cause after all, I’ve got mine. And we can pretend that health insurance expenses will actually disappear because we get the government to pay for them.

45

No, they don’t. Read the cite I provided. Here’s another interesting stat. About 7 or 8% of those making $75K or more a year don’t have health insurance. I’m sure every single one of those people finds it impossible, a financial burden beyond their means, not a choice at all. They’re part of those 40 million crippled by debt, I’m sure.

Folks, you can be for universal health care without making stuff up. There are not 40 million debt-ridden, almost dead, uncared for Americans because they are uninsured. There just is not. If there those who are legitimately in peril because of circumstances beyond their control, there are already government programs that could be expanded or enhanced. We don’t need a brand-new boondoggle, and someone who has that opinion is not saying fuck everyone else, though I’m sure that will be Shayna’s take.

46

Do you have any stats on how many of those people can’t get insurance due to some sort of pre-existing condition?

47

No, I don’t. Here’s a cite that offers some interesting info:

48

The GOP health plan has for some time been “Don’t get sick and you’ll be fine.” Had they had the sense to not pick up a ‘pre-existing condition’ it wouldn’t be an issue, now would it?

-Joe

49

Since you claim there’s not that many without health insurance do to poverty surely we can afford to give them health insurance yes? The government can afford a trillion in bail out money after all.

I have fucking scar on my foot that hurts like hell if something hits it wrong because my mom couldn’t afford health insurance when I was a kid. It needed medical attention but didn’t get it because my mom couldn’t afford it and as result blood like crazy then healed wrong.

I’ll have that scar for the rest of my life thanks to incompetence of the american health care system.
As an adult who spends most of my like working I have an ulcer or something that randomly burns like fire. Sleeping at night usually sets it off. What a way to wake up. Eating or drinking anything hurts it too. I haven’t been able to afford going to a doctor for it yet.

One of my friends has dangerously dysfunctional kidneys. Been that way since she was little. She’s hoping she finishes college and can get a job with health insurance before they become too much of an issue. Kind of a biological time bomb. Can’t afford medical care on her own.

What’s your suggestion to her? What should she if they go before she finishes college?

Crippling debt or death isn’t a valid answer.

They bailed wall street out. Why can’t the government bail her out? Or is someone’s stock portofolio more important then her life?

50

Apologize in advance for the slight hijack; this ended up getting a bit longer than I expected. I started out planning on writing specifically about the debate, but have been mulling alot of other stuff over for quite a bit, and just kept writing…

Up until a few months ago, I would have been willing to go along with another Republican president, if it was McCain. He seemed feisty, and at the very least I like his free trade stance (I am betting that Obama will back away from his overly populist rhetoric when/if he gets to the White House).

Now, however, I am starting to wonder if McCain is really qualified for the job. The biggest reason is his choice of Vice President – in his first real ‘presidential’ decision, he panicked, and he gambled. I honestly believe he has started to believe his ‘swashbuckling maverick’ label/gimmick, and thought he could get away with a long-shot gamble that might be a game-changer. Well, sorry John, but one thing you don’t get to do as president is gamble with the country’s future, and Palin’s woeful inexperience (coupled with the criminally pathetic vetting process) would make her a lousy choice for anyone, even Obama, let along a 72-year old cancer survivor. Irresponsible is putting it lightly – he went with the political choice that he thought would pander to his party’s extremes and female Clinton supporters, apparently thinking women will vote for anyone as long as they’re female.

It’s a sham, and the most ludicrous choice McCain could have possibly made. This was the most qualified person he could find? Really? Some have suggested she might be quietly urged to step down ‘for family reasons’. I don’t think there’s any way she can step down now – it’d kill both her and McCain’s political careers, although I would actually have more respect for McCain if he did can her now. It’s the harder, but better, choice, to admit you were wrong and try to fix it, then stubbornly stick to your mistake (see Bush, GW).

I also think it’s also not even fair to her – she’s being put in a position to fail, and if I were her, I’d be concerned that the failure would be so complete she’ll never get another chance 10 years or so from now when she might actually be a decent choice.

I personally would hate to see her in any political office near me tho. She’s divisive, and everything I’ve seen/read so far points to an insecure, power-hungry micro-manager. We’ve all worked for managers like that – they can’t earn loyalty through their work and how they treat their employees; they get it by being a bully. For cryin’ out loud, once she was mayor of a town of barely 7,000 people, she wanted to kick out all supporters of the other candidate because she ‘wasn’t sure of their support’, and no employees were allowed to talk to the press. This in a town of 7,000 people! My god, what did she think she was running, the CIA? She’s into secrecy and ‘loyalty’ – but the kind of loyalty that isn’t earned, it’s dealt out as ‘reward’ or taken away as ‘punishment’. I respect Hilary Clinton, and think she still has a lot she can offer, but this is the one area I don’t like about her, and it’s the biggest reason I didn’t want her in the White House, either as Prez or VP. Look at her campaign – disorganized, full of back-stabbing, bad-mouthing, bad blood, finger-pointing and one-upmanship. Contrast that with Obama’s campaign, which was beautifully organized, coordinated, and people were pulling as a team. That comes from the top, and I submit that the two campaigns are mirrors of what their respective presidential terms would look like.

During last Friday’s debate, I thought Obama looked composed and intelligent. He seems earnest in his desire to come to an intellectual compromise on tough issues. McCain came across as a grumpy old man. For all his talk about being the one to ‘reach across the isle’, I thought he looked like the one least likely to try and comprise.

Now we have the upcoming vice presidential debate. Take a look at some of Biden’s recent interviews. YouTube his recent talks on the Today Show and Meet the Press. Contrast that with Palin – the McCain campaign is obviously scared to let Palin out from her cage, and man, after her one or two interviews so far, I don’t blame them.

Palin in trouble. Biden knows his stuff. He obviously is smart, and he very very obviously knows what he’s talking about. He doesn’t need coaching. Sure, I’m sure before debates/interviews he brushes up on recent developments, facts & figures etc. But he doesn’t need coaching on the issues, on his policies, or on what his position should be. Palin, on the other hand, has to be completely spoon-fed everything, because she has no clue on any of the issues or what her position should be. She’ll probably hold her own on energy, maybe. Anything else, she’s going to be completely lost, no matter how much the McCain team drills her. Her interviews remind me of some high-school student cramming overnight for a debate, memorizing a few soundbites and comments, and is completely unable to answer any question that isn’t phrased in a way that lets her fall back on her parrot-speak. It’s why she has to repeat the same stuff over and over when asked a follow-up question.

Either way, I hope to see Obama president. Not that I think McCain is necessarily bad – hell, he’d be better than Bush. But I think Obama’s the better choice now, and I think he’s the better choice looking out over the next 10,20 years, or the next 3-4 generations. A black president in America will do more to lift the country’s standing not only overseas, but at home as well. Think what a black president could do for millions of minority Americans living in our inner cities. Obviously I don’t believe that it would prove there is no more prejudice, bigotry, or discrimination in the US. And I’m not an expert on African-American issues, but my understanding is that within the young black community, studying and going to school is somehow viewed as ‘selling out’. Bill Cosby has gotten reamed by the black community in the US for –gasp- suggesting that young black men would be better off staying in school, getting an education, trying to be good dads (btw – Obama’s speech this past summer on Father’s Day, I believe, was amazing).

I think Obama as president would completely turn this on its head – the African-American community can longer can say (justified or not) that ‘White America’ is keeping them down – regardless of race, an education and hard work can literally put you anywhere. Even President of the United States. This could completely reenergize and revitalize urban America, and just imagine the benefits that would accrue in a generation or so as entire urban communities pull themselves out of poverty because they see hope – hope that America is truly the land of freedom and opportunity.

I’m not so naïve as to think that this is guaranteed if Obama wins, or even if it did, that it would even happen that quickly or smoothly. But in addition to being the right person for the time – the person to show a new face, a new approach for the US, particularly in the international arena, Obama offers a truly historic opportunity to put America on a dramatic new course for the future. It’s a road I’d like to see the US take.

51

I seriously doubt you want people to suffer but I think you are missing the forest because of the trees.

I found this part of your quote interesting:

So, these people are self-diagnosing their illness and claiming, on their own, that they are better or worse? Where are the numbers on actually being better?

Your quote cited a Kaiser Family Foundation study so I looked it up and the Kaiser study had this to say (bolding mine):

From my same source as above (again bolding mine):

You seem to imply we have everything we need in place to handle this yet clearly the current system is FAR from handling it. No set of little tweaks will close these gaps. I sincerely wish that were the case but it just isn’t.

52

I’ll be honest with you. I have followed this campaign from day one. I have voted GOP in every election since I became old enough to vote ('94 for congressional, '96 for Presidential) but you can put me in the undecided, but leaning McCain camp on this one.

I think history will show that the Bush Presidency has been an unmitigated disaster. Obviously the 9/11 attacks, and Katrina hitting New Orleans were not his fault, but in several other critical areas he has shown a lackluster response, and has shown a propensity to surround himself, not with the best people, but with his buddies from Texas.

Now, I disagree with Obama politically, but he’s a good guy, and while his policies, IMO, would do long term harm, they might be what we need only in the short term to get us out of this dangerous spiral we are in.

That being said, McCain is certainly not a Bush clone, and it would be good to have someone like him as commander in chief in a time of two drawn out wars. He doesn’t rely on markets like a true conservative, so he might get us out of this anyways.

And I’m also a social conservative. The next President will almost certainly replaced John Paul Stevens on SCOTUS. If McCain does it, it will be the justice who votes to overturn Roe v. Wade. If Obama does it, Roe will survive forever.

But, abortion, gay marriage, or anything else means nothing to be if I can’t get employed or feed my family.

Me=undecided, leaning toward McCain…

53

Primacare is a medical center for non-emergency treatment open 7 days a week. They are all over the place here in the Dallas area and I wrongly assumed they were nationwide. I would expect something similar exists in Chicago (although I couldn’t find anything with a quick web search), assuming that’s where you were two years ago.

The figure I quoted for my emergency room trip was the bill from the hospital, not what I or my insurance paid. The insurance did negotiate the bill down some from the $3000 and I paid my deductible and copayment on the negotiated amount. I have heard that hospitals will negotiate the bill with individuals as well if they don’t have insurance.

By the way, there is a lot of talk upthread about the $5000 McCain plan. I, stupidly, know nothing about it but I’m now wondering - is that $5000 per person, per taxpayer, per family, or what? It seems the most likely thing is per taxpayer which is not unreasonable based on Shayna’s stated figure and my own, which is very similar.

54

No, that’s not what I said.

It’s also a false dilemma.

I don’t want the government to bail anyone out, not anyone who can care for themselves. I suggest your friend explore Medicaid. That said, I don’t believe the government is the solution to everything. Obviously some believe otherwise.

As P.J. O’Rourke once said, if you think health care is expensive now, wait till it’s free.

55

I agree. Why isn’t expansion of existing programs the answer? Why can’t a revamped Medicaid program close the gap for the least fortunate? Why do we need universal health care when 85% of the population is insured? What would lead anyone to believe that the Federal government will provide an efficient administration of some enormous new bureaucracy, that costs would not go up?

56

Bear in mind that there’s no guarantee that there will even be a challenge to Roe in the next four years, and even if it’s overturned, it won’t necessarily make any difference. All Roe said was that states can’t ban abortion, and in much of the country, at this point, that’s political suicide to propose. It would be harder to get in some places, but not impossible. Also, of course, reversing Roe would hand an enormous electoral advantage to the Democrats, which is why neither side really wants to do it.

57

Just like SD did after Alito was appointed, if JPS dies or resigns, there will be challenges, no doubt if McCain is in office and appoints someone who seems to be inclined to overturn Roe v. Wade.

I’m not sure I agree with the “enormous” electoral advantage that would give them Dems. Pro-life Dems and Pro-choice Repubs are in the minority and bastard redheaded step-childs of their own parties… (Harry Reid being one exception, but we all see how many pro-life bills he sponsors)

You have hardcores on each side, but if abortion were illegal tomorrow, I see life going on as usual for most folks.

And sure, CA and NY would keep legal abortion while MS, FL, and AL would punish it by death. Wouldn’t make car or plane travel illegal for those who want to get abortions to go to states where it is legal…

58

You can’t stop abortion. You can outlaw it, but that only makes it inconvenient.

So the pivotal issue for millions of social conservatives is largely a symbolic one? If we both agree that this is life as usual for most folks either way, can we agree to tackle some issues that aren’t?

59

You might want to read this article.

60

This I can get behind. If done right it accomplishes the important goals of universal healthcare (universal access to healthcare) but leaves the old system in place for those who can afford it, and want it.

The main gotcha would be making sure no one fell through the gaps.