They always refer to Fergie as the Duchess of York, but didn’t she get a divorce? If she did, is a divorced duchess still called a duchess? If so is it just for courtesy or is she a real duchess? If Fergie didn’t get the divorce, then of course she is still entitled to the title. Also, suppose a woman marries a count or something and then he dies and she next marries a baron. Does she lose her title of countess and become baroness? And I’ve often wondered, if a duchess or marchioness or somebody marries an untitled personnage, do any of her children have titles? Finally, I remember a movie in which Queen Elizabeth I said, “I am an Independent Princess!” Does this mean she was born to the title, as distinct from just marrying it? I have heard that Zsa Zsa Gabor’s husband, an Anhault, bought his title. Is this possible, how much did it cost, and is Zsa Zsa a countess?
I remember hearing about Fergie’s case at the time of the divorce; it was part of the deal she made with Elizabeth. I think she gets to keep the title because her daughters are/will be titled, and it wouldn’t do for them to have a common mother.
Heck yes one can buy a title. Many impoverished lords of the manor have had to find creative alternate means of generating income.
You can also score a knighthood by benefitting the Crown with your money- a friend’s dad is now “Sir John” and it’s pretty funnny.
I think that yes, she IS still the Duchess of York (I don’t think they can strip you of that title unless one advances in rank, or her husband dies, then she would be DOWAGER Duchess of York). HOWEVER…is she still a Royal Highness or was she stripped of that, like Diana?
I don’t believe she retained “HRH.”
What is the difference between titles like Highness, Majesty, Grace, as in Your Highness, His Majesty, Her Grace, on the one hand and titles like Duchess, Princess, Count,
Earl, on the other hand?
Hmmm…Highness can be Imperial, Royal, or Serene, in that order, I believe. It’s mainly used for members of reigning families.
Majesty is used for a sovereign, the sovereign’s consort, or the sovereign’s dowager mother.
Your Grace, is used for non-royal English dukes and duchesses.
In Russia, I think it’s Your Excellency.
Yes. Elizabeth I never married. Being King Henry’s daughter, she was a queen regnant, that is, queen and monarch because queen in her own right. This is as opposed to a queen consort (not the monarch, but queen because she married the king, like Liz I’s mother Anne Boleyn.)
To be fair, it’s not the Crown but the governing political party that can be bribed to get a knighthood or a peerage.
don willard,
Her Majesty = the Queen & the Queen Mother
His/Her Royal Highness = princes, princesses and royal dukes.
His/Her Grace = a non-royal duke or a Church of England Bishop
Other ranks of peerage (Baron, Earl, Viscount) are referred to as “Lord Thing”
the official title for fergie is : sarah, duchess of york. she lost the hrh and “the” when she and andrew divorced. should andrew remarry someone that person would be: her highness THE duchess of york. no first name. “the” makes the diffrence. sarah would not be the dowager duchess unless she and andrew remarry before his death. that is what happens when you loose “the.” york is not a totally inherited title, it must be given by the monarch, usually to the second son. so after andrew dies the title may go to william’s brother henry.
when andrew’s and charles’ marriages went south the queen decided that only by-birth people would get the “r” in hrh. she also was concerned about a series of “ex’s” having the same title as the “present’s.” so sarah ferguson went from: hrh the duchess of york to: sarah, duchess of york, or your grace, or ma’am. diana went from: hrh the princess of wales, to: diana, princess of wales, or ma’am. diana’s sons are hrh prince william and henry of wales. sarah’s daughters are hrh princess beatrice and eugenie of york.
an interest thing this, gain a husband and loose your first name, divorce him and get it back. if the queen had decided not to give andrew the title of york, fergie would have been: hrh princess andrew. very weird.
Which leads me to the question that I always have when I read about Princess Michael of Kent , which is about every five or six years, but * why do the women have their offical names that of their husband.*
Say her name is Jane, but her husband is Michael. She is addressed as Princess Michael. Why not Princess Jane?
well, you asked for it ms. ujest. it appears that brits, miss manners, and i are major sticklers when it comes to women and honourifics.
jane smith marries john jones, in a fit of whimsy she decides to changes her name to his. this means she is now mrs john jones. she looses her first and last name for her married name. she is not mrs jane jones unless john in an extreme fit of whimsy changes his name to jane. she can be ms jane jones however. or just stay ms jane smith. should she divorce john she then becomes mrs smith jones or ms jane smith. this came up once in work when updating marketing stuff for someone who had changed last names. after a discussion on what is what and my dropping miss manner’s book on the table, the woman went with ms.
now let’s take a walk on the royal side. jane smith marries prince john. usually royalty don’t use last names so she becomes princess john. mrs to princess, jane to john. she takes his title and name. if they divorce she looses the title and name, regaining jane. men usually don’t take the title from a woman in the royal line. philip was elevated before he married elizabeth. anne’s husbands did not take the title of prince. the queen also gave edward a diffrent title so that his wife is not princess edward. a conferred title is higher that a birth title. just a bit more pomp to the circumstance.
so royal not that much diffrent than common, just that in public your called by a male first name. i’m sure during family tea times you’d be called jane. it is still very weird.
/hijack/
Also, as Princess Michael is a CATHOLIC…he had to renounce his sucession rights.
I like Prince Michael of Kent…he’s probably my favorite royal.
rocking chair’s answer is the correct one. The point to note is that, although there was no relevant royal precedent on which the decision could be based (no British royal dukes had divorced in modern times), the queen did not simply invent these rules. The rules laid down for divorcing royal duchesses were based on those for divorcing non-royal duchesses. However arcane they may seem, there was a certain logic to them.
or dies.
No, if he dies she’s still Mrs. John Jones. If they get divorced, she may be Mrs. Jane Jones – I’m not entirely sure about this.
Good luck trying to convince any male of my own generation that this is the case, though. “Of course my wife is going to take my name! I wouldn’t marry anybody who wasn’t willing to do that! But I don’t want her to go around calling herself Mrs. Eric so-and-so, 'cause that’s just sexist and antiquated!”
Most excellent answers and the analogy between being Mrs. Charles Smith or whatever and being Princess Michael of Kent is new to me and very logical. The only trouble is although I have heard of this Princess Michael of Kent, I don’t know who she is, I mean basically who is Prince Michael of Kent?
I know that Marie the Queen of Rumania was the daughter of the Duke of Edinburgh way back, and this must be the title of the third son or so of the monarch, which was H.M. Victoria at the time. Also is an Episcopalian bishop in America called Your Grace, like an Anglican one in England.
Isn’t the Archbishop of Canterbury also the head of the American or any other Episcopalian Church and isn’t that really the same as the Anglican Church? And wherever the bishop lives, it is called The Palace even if it isn’t real big and gold, I know that much from English novels. And one more thing, isn’t any judge in England addressed as Your Grace, because I saw this on tv, for instance in some British comedy serieses. BORN TO THE MANOR, OR TO THE MANOR BORN was one and the one about the lawyer that had to put up with everybody else’s pomposity.
Actually, Alfred of Edinburgh was Victoria’s SECOND son. She could have called him the Duke of York, but she disliked that title, as it reminded her of one of her uncle’s. There wasn’t a Duke of York until her grandson George got married, and she called him the Duke of York, even though he was the son of the Prince of Wales.
(Ah…Marie of Roumania…one of my FAVORITE royals!)
Prince Michael of Kent is the youngest son of Prince George and Princess Marina, the Duke and Duchess of Kent. George was a son of King George V.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/index.htm
is a page about the Royal Family
And here is Michael of Kent’s page:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/family/kent3.htm
bishops & archbishops are all called your grace in most denominations. i would think that only anabaptists are the exception to this.
mrs is never to be used with a woman’s first name. that is why gloria started ms magazine. ms can be use with a woman’s first name and married last name. the only exception i can think of to the rule would be if the married couple had the same first name. the way that some names can be used by men or women this may actually happen. widows if they changed to their husbands name keep it after his death unless they remarry. in case of divorce a woman can either change back to maiden name or use mrs maiden last married last, ie: mrs smith jones.
queen victoria had quite the race to the throne. it really is interesting stuff to read. all those uncles suddenly getting married, trying to have kids. amazing. it stands to reason she would feel a bit off about some of them. she really didn’t have a lock on the throne until the minute they crowned her. lest we forget duke of edinburgh is one of prince philip’s titles.
Ah yes…her uncles…yeah, she REALLY was lucky…in fact, the succession wasn’t quite secure until the birth of her first child, Vicky, the Princess Royal. Otherwise, it would’ve gone to her uncle, the Duke of Cumberland and the King of Hanover, Ernest-August, a real tyrant!