Ben Stein is, indeed, awesome.
I think it may not be that the society is “dumber”, but society’s response to intelligence has declined. People seem to value other things as more important now. Heathens…
“How’d you get your mind to tilt like your hat?”
-The Thrashing Doves
NoRJv–oh, hell, the case-impaired:
Would’t you consider the possiblity that the content of game shows could be a suggestive indicator? They are totally market oriented, based on ruthless analysis of demograpics and target audiences. The background research involved in commiting boocundle dollars to air a game show may not be elegantly footnoted in finest social science terms, but I doubt that it’s much less ruthless and pragmatic for all that.
IMO, there’s a pitiful lack of meaningful examination of our own culture. (Yo, Kyla! BA and MA in Anthro here…) Looking at what is valued as expressed in popular culture is a legitimate area of exploration, and it may be all the more valuable for being unconscious, i.e. not planned, spun or glossed over in advance.
Veb
What I want to see is a game show with Alex Trebek, Ben Stein, and Regis. I’m not sure who would host it. I’d bet on Alex to win though.
David, especially if they had a “Pronounce This” category. Like your handle, BTW.
During the inquiry on quiz shows, Dr. Joyce Brothers was called to testify and was asked questions on prizefighting, which she answered correctly. According to my dad. He could be wrong, but he is usually right when it comes to trivia.
~Kyla
“Anger is what makes America great.”
I saw/read an interview with Joyce Brothers in which she said that she and her husband decided she should go on that show…selected a topic that would make her unusual to improve her selection chances for the show and it turned out to be boxing. She went on to say that she and her husband pulled all the material they could find and she memorized it.
Another excellent book on this subject is BAD Or, the Dumbing of America by Paul Fussell. It is hysterically funny. His other book on American society, Class, is also worth reading (as are his books on military history, if you’re interested in that kind of thing).
Unfortunately, BAD is out of print at the moment, but it’s still available on cassette.
Sake: THAT was a rip!!! 
TVeblen: The old man bit was done a lot better by someone else, but you know what they say. Imitation IS the highest form of flattery! 
Yeah, we are dumber and TV helped. Sad, really sad. I chucked mine in the garbage 12 years ago and never looked back. Education? A joke! College? A farce, you can get a Ph.D. in Madonna these days and a doctorate is something you can wipe your a… I mean face on these days. Still, those who wish to learn, learn. That’s how it is and that’s how it will be.
Ken
I guess I’m the only person here who actually has a use for the " . . . for Dummies" line of books.
Which would you prefer - a person who, knowing that they are ignorant and technically naive, reads a book that is unintimidating, well written, and technically accurate so that they can master a subject OR would you prefer a person who refuses to pick up a book and learn something because they’re too important/busy/proud of their ignorance/whatever?
I make my living doing technical support, and I know which one I prefer. By a long shot.
So long as they’re willing to even try to learn, they have my respect and my willingness to help. There are far too many people out there that can’t even be bothered.
If those are the only two choices - then A.
FWIW, I see the _______ for Dummies series as a minor symptom, nothing more. Surely they’re not the only books that are “unintimidating, well written, and technically accurate,” are they? Why is it a plus to pitch them as being for dummies? “For Beginners,” “A Primer,” “Basics of” – all these phrases would seem to indicate beginner’s level instruction without revelling in the dumminess of the target audience.
It’s a minor point, but…
I would agree completely with that.
It’s just that the “target audiences” like game shows… some don’t. (I’m not sure if it’s because they make us feel so dumb, or if they conflict with the Gong Show reruns)
I’ve never seen most of those shows, but from what I gather (from this thread) there’s been a decline in the “difficulty” (obscurity?) of the questions, over the last 40 years.
My wild-ass-guess would be that society has become so much more technical during that time that people are more concerned with facts relating to basic survival than sixteenth century trivia. (thank the dummie gods for those idiot’s manuals)
I would go along with the dumbing-down of American game shows, but not the dumbing-down of America in general.
…and hey, what tha heck is so hard about spelling NorjVkvgl… aww shit…nevermind.
I’ve heard in a documentary that on the premiere of (the fifties version of) Twenty-One they tried to make it completely legitimate. It was a disaster. The contestants had major problems answering the questions. The sponsors told them they never wanted this happening again. Henceforth they arranged things so that contestants appeared brilliant.
TVeblen writes:
> my parents, in the Great Depression, for
> God’s sake, were required to learn Latin,
> real math, history, English, etc.
Interesting anecdote. Here’s my anecdote. At the same time, my parents went to high school. They and their siblings graduated from high school, whereas none of their parents even started high school. Two of my mother’s nine siblings graduated from college. My mother several years later took a couple of college courses part-time, but got married and had no more time for that. Two of my father’s five siblings (one of whom died in childhood) started college, but quit for some reason. My father was the best in his high school algebra class, but never considered going to college.
Of the eight kids in my family (me, five brothers, and two sisters), six of us graduated from college. I have in addition two master’s degrees. My nephews and nieces seem to be smarter than we were. Some of them learned to read before they entered kindergarten. In my family then, what I’ve noticed is a gradual increase in educational level. This makes it appear, at least, that there’s an increase in intelligence.
But my story is just an anecdote too. Wouldn’t statistics make a better argument than anecdotes?
Bricker, I would imagine they pitch them as " . . . for Dummies" because the average reasonably intelligent and humorously inclined person can recognize humorous intent and irony.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
I tried to post this yesterday, but there was some trouble with the BB. Anyway, it was more in regards to th OP suggesting that stupidity is becoming a laudable quality:
Yep. What I see as a possible by-product of this is anti-discrimination laws for the stupid. “You can’t not hire me because I’m dumb! That’s against the law!” Lawsuit follows…
You may laugh at this, but I’m hearing more and more statements like these. “It’s not right that some people cannot afford what they want just because they’re not as smart as others.”
Some will agree with that statement, but I’m not one of them.
(Soon to come: “You can’t fire me just because I’m lazy - that’s discrimination against the lazy!”)
PeeQueue
Ouch, pldennison pokes us anti-dummy dummies in the eye.
Right you are. See, for example, the Down with Gluttony thread in The Pit ( http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000527.html )
When I read Atlas Shrugged, I was depressed at how bleakly Ayn Rand saw humanity as a whole, and how little value she saw in compassion and generousity of spirit. Now, I begin to wonder if she may have been closer to the mark than I realized.
I drive a reasonably nice car. From time to time, I’ll get compliments on it. (“Nice car!” “Thanks!”) As though I built it Somewhat less frequently, I’ll get the “Gee, it must be nice,” or the “With all the starving people in the world…” remarks.
Of course, what isn’t apparent is that in order to afford the car I drive, I bought my last new car in 1987… and kept it for nine years. While my neighbors were trading in cars every two or three years, and enjoying that nice new-car smell and warranty service for things that went wrong, I kept my increasingly clunky car, and suffered through the inevitable repair bills and time in the shop. And every month after the car loan was paid off, I kept making a car payment - to myself. I opened a separate account, in a far-away bank, with no ATM card on it… and just kept writing checks to myself every month. I was used to the car payment, so it was easy to stay in the habit.
1996 rolls around, and I look at what I have saved, and realize I can afford to buy my next new car for cash. So I did. And yes, dammit, it is nice, even (now) almost four years old. But guess what? I’m going to keep it for ten years. And I am still making the car payments to myself.
Sorry. More information than was relevant.
But it irks me no end, this “Oh, it must be nice,” business. The sacrifice that is needed to make it nice isn’t seen or understood.
On a side note: Alex Trebek is a real ass IMO! Was a pompous SOB! I always fantasize going on that show and stealing his thunder; not so much by answering questions but by talking a lot and goofing off on the show. As I watched last night I was thinking of the interview process: Mr Straightlaced all the way up to the show night then, kaboom, turn into this riotous punk. I’d whoop it up when I got right answers and throw Adam Sandleresque tantrums when I messed up! Wouldn’t that be a blast?
“How’d you get your mind to tilt like your hat?”
-The Thrashing Doves
Since we’ve moved onto anecdotes…
When I went to B. Dalton’s to buy my copy of the book I recommended above, I asked the store clerk if they had it in stock. The guy actually asked me, “How do you spell dumb?” I replied, “Correctly. Never mind about the book.” Then I promptly went to their competition (Border’s) and bought a copy there.
Consider the plight of the gentleman who was fired for his correct – and non-racist – use of the word “niggardly.”
I used the word “niggling” on this board a week or so ago, and was pleased – and relieved – to see that nobody got upset about it.
-Melin
He wasn’t fired, he resigned after a gigantic controversy that could not be quieted.
And he was rehired, although in a different capacity. I wouldn’t blame him, I wouldn’t want to work with those people anymore either.
Actually, to get back to the OP, I see the current situation in America as very similar to the movement in America in the 1820’s to empower the common man. As part of what became known as Jacksonian democracy, the country went through a metamorphosis wherein it tried to empower the common, uneducated, unpropertied man. One example I recall well from my days in law school was that lawyers were no longer required to attend a law school, as this was felt to be too limiting to the common man.
Today, we are going through the same shift. During the post-war period, we tended to consider learning and status as something desirable. Now, instead, we want everyone to have an opportunity at what was once the domain of those who actually worked to learn or earn what was needed. Want a lot of money? Win a lottery. Want to be a financial whiz? Read a book and trade online. Want to win a quiz show? Answer easy questions after being lucky enough to get on the show in the first place (by answering equally easy questions then being selected by the show from a pool of potential players massively larger than the number able to be shoe-horned into a few nights).
I think this trend will reverse itself only when we find ourselves unable to meet some great challenge because we haven’t invested the necessary effort. Then, as in the past, those who actually have educated themselves, or worked hard to obtain something will again by considered people worthy of admiration.