But the anti-taxers are driven by those who would do better if the public was ill informed, so I don’t think that that argument will convince them.
No President has ever had the power to do either thing under the Constitution, but many have done it. Obama has violated the Constitution on multiple occasions, and Santorum has openly expressed his contempt for it. The idea that laws can stop the mob is fantasy.
The ENTIRE country? We’re not even at the point where a meaningful majority would be “outraged” by anything that happens to those “deviant sodomites who are preying on our children and destroying my marriage.” Even the people who, given the choice, would prefer gay rights aren’t even willing to eat a different kind of chicken sandwich to back it up. You really think they’re going to fight against the government?
I would like to live in your version of the South. Where can I buy a ticket?
“It can’t happen here” is dangerous, dangerous thinking. The only thing for gays to do in light of it is buy guns and get yourself ready for when they come from you, because telling yourself it will never happen is a great way to end up a pile of ashes.
It doesn’t necessarily matter if Santorum would himself act out against gays. Electing someone like him can give legitimacy to his ideas in some people’s minds. It may embolden individuals, or groups, to discriminate or even to commit violent acts.
Sure. And I’m dead serious about getting a transfer to one of our foreign offices if he’s actually elected.
But there’s a big friggin’ difference between electing Santorum and having people hauled off in cattle cars en masse. If you think that’s a believable scenario in the next 4 years under Santorum, I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you.
Jews had better legal protections in Germany in 1931 than gays in America do now. I don’t know what else to say to this “no no no surely OUR COUNTRY could never do THAT” thinking other than a reminder to look at history.
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The Japanese internment camps and the evacuation of Japanese persons from the coasts happened within living memory. It was partially based on xenophobia and partially based on straight out racist opportunism from people who just wanted the brown folks gone. It’s naive to think something like that couldn’t happen today, if say, America was suddenly hit with a wave of Muslim suicide bombers.
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Go back and read that list I posted yesterday. Bigots are responsible for a whole lot of bad shit before we even mention the cattle cars. Allowing bigots to, for example, interfere with a woman’s ability to control her own medical decisions about her own body, is not an acceptable step.
That’s what’s happening in Arizona, where state lawmakers have introduced a bill that would remove Arizona’s women’s protection from discrimination for using birth control. Current Arizona law says that religious employees may not be fired if they choose to get prescriptions or insurance - on their own, out of their own pockets - for contraceptives. Republican lawmakers want to remove that protection from discrimination, making it possible for any employer to fire and employee for using contraception, even if the employee pays for it herself.
cite - the new proposed legislation
http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/50leg/2r/bills/hb2625h.htm&Session_ID=107
cite - article about it all
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/EJMontini/157343
Meanwhile, over in Wisconsin, Republican state legislator Glen Grothman is trying to declare that being a single parent is a contributing factor in child abuse and neglect. Grothman’s bill would cover the way that Wisconsin’s Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention Board to emphasis that “emphasize nonmarital parenthood as a contributing factor to child abuse and neglect.” This would, of course, include adoption by same-sex couples.
cite - the bill
cite - article about Grothman
Not to be outdone, the bill’s co-sponsor, Republican Don Pridemore, gave an interview today where he claimed that the real problem is women choosing to leave their husbands. When asked if that included women escaping abusive marriages, Pridemore said yes. He suggested that instead of leaving, women should think about the reasons they got married in the first place and and just get back to those reasons.
Seriously.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/13/wisconsin-gop-to-battered-women-dont-get-divorced/
So what have learned?
1. Elected bigots try to turn bigoted ideas into law.
2. The idea that electing bigots is harmless because they can't send out cattle cars is belied by the actions of currently elected bigots.
3. The idea that it's unthinkable that bigots would send out cattle cars in the first place is belied by recent history.
4. The idea that the bigots who want to turn back the clock to the days of Father Knows Best wouldn't make this country into a place like Saudia Arabia - is laughable.Obvious they didn’t in a practical sense. And looking at history, there was NOT a significant push by many Germans to extend full social equality to Jews or to codify equality protection explicitly for Jews, nor were there any signs that the younger generation of Germans thought differently about Jews than their older counterparts. That’s clearly not true in the US with homosexuals.
I hate having to defend religious/social conservatives, but it’s stuff like this that make civil discourse in this country next to impossible. It’d be one thing if it was simply hyperbole, but apparently you seriously believe these things will come to pass and that there wouldn’t be any significant outrage over it.
When Obama was elected, there were a few things I heard claimed (admittedly from some crazy people) that were all various hues of ridiculous and haven’t yet come to pass. I don’t expect any of them to come to pass in the future, either.
- Firearms banned and confiscated.
- People who voted against him to be rounded up and send to death camps (note this is remarkably similar to your claim and I gave it as much credence as I give yours).
- Entitlement spending to go up drastically.
- The end of days (i.e. Armageddon) to literally come to pass.
- Sharia law to become the law of the land.
So, let me make my own “bold” :rolleyes: predictions about what we’d see in 4 years of a Santorum Presidency (low probability and mind-numbing horror of that thought aside):
- We will NOT see “dissidents” or homosexuals rounded up in cattle cars to be sent to camps (death, summer, or otherwise).
- We will NOT be ruled from Rome by the Pope.
- Contraceptives will NOT be banned.
- Abortion will NOT be outright banned.
- The teaching of intelligent design will NOT be mandated by the Department of Education
- No cabinet departments (HHS, Education, Energy, Commerce) will be shut down. For that matter, while it may get hamstrung, the EPA won’t go away, either.
- We will NOT see a balanced federal budget.
I’m also not getting your stereotypical view of the American South. Are there gay-bashing, women-hating racists? Yes. And maybe they’re more out in the open than elsewhere in the country. But progress is being made, and, except in some truly backwards corners, you’re no longer a complete pariah for simply being openly gay. Maybe that level of progress isn’t fast enough, but it’s better than a lot of people “up north” give the South credit for.
Yes, TRY being the operative word. Arizona is not exactly the Department of Justice’s favorite state right now. And people aren’t exactly sitting still for any of this in Arizona or Wisconsin.
Hi, I’m the middle. Feeling excluded here.
When did I ever claim electing bigots was harmless? As I said before, there’s a HUGE difference between (A) electing them and (B) seeing people in cattle cars in the next 4 years.
Going straight from “they’ll enact bad policies” to “they’ll round up Americans to kill them” excludes a hell of a lot of middle ground.
See above RE: excluded middle.
Really? It didn’t happen under George Bush. And despite the best efforts of Jan Brewer and Joe Arpaio, it’s not really happening in Arizona, either. Things suck in Arizona, but they’re also getting pushback and it’s not even close to Saudi Arabia levels yet. And despite Bush’s best efforts, acceptance of gays and gay marriage increased over his Presidency, rather than the reverse.
It’s not about defending these people, it’s about realistically assessing what they can do and what will likely happen.
Basically, you sound like the people who claim Obama can and will take guns out of people’s hands and force women to have abortions. There’s room for honest disagreement but no room for demonizing people based on nothing but fear.
There is a lot of groupthink among Southern Republicans.
Textbook case, I’d say.
Well, I could deal with having strong unions and wages high enough to support a family on a single wage again. Somehow I don’t think that’s what the Republicans are looking for.
What, me worry?
Which is why I didn’t do that.
As I said in my previous post, “Bigots are responsible for a whole lot of bad shit before we even mention the cattle cars.” I then went on to name some specific elected bigots and the specific acts of bigotry they’re actively trying to accomplish, right now.
That is the middle part. It wasn’t excluded. I pointed right at it and said, “Look! Currently elected bigots performing bigotry without cattle cars!”
The fact that the bigots appear - at least for the moment - to be unsuccessful overall does not mean that we are required to view their individual attempts at enacting their bigotry into law with equanimity.
And yes, I do think that - given very recent history - it’s naive or ignorant to think that internment camps could never happen again in this country. It wouldn’t happen overnight. It didn’t happen overnight, last time, either. Shit like that happens step by step - and opposition to that shit has to start early.
“Don’t get worked up about the bigots because, really - what’s the worst they can do?” is honestly not a position in which I have any interest.
I agree! That’s why I’m demonizing actual people based on the actual things that they actually say and do.
You see, whereas Obama has not lifted a finger to force women to have an abortion or strip people of their guns - the Republican bigots I pointed to are, in fact, currently trying to do the things I accused them of doing.
Will they be successful? Maybe, maybe not. I’m not as sanguine about their failure as you are. Either way, I see no reason not to call a spade, a spade or to refrain from kicking up a ruckus when bigots act all bigotty.
And also, either way - I’m not just pulling this shit out of my ass, unlike the “Obama’s a secret muslim abortionist” crowd.
No, I don’t think that’s a believable scenario. I never said I did. But it could get much worse than it currently is.
Sorry if my post seemed to imply you did think that was a believable scenario, but there is at least one poster who think it’s not only a plausible scenario but a likely one.
It’s not even an “attracting flies with vinegar vs honey” debate anymore but an “attracting flies with vinegar vs 30% hydrogen peroxide” debate.
Opposition to bigots is fine - and action has already started. But making claims that bigots would force people onto cattle cars the instant they take power is taking things too far and is simply counterproductive.
I’m not even claiming it couldn’t happen in the long run. I’m claiming that there is near 0% probability it happens in the short run in a Santorum presidency and that there’s a low probability it ever happens as long as people are keeping tabs on things.
I’m not even sure how there’s a reasonable debate about that. It’s ludicrous to think otherwise.