The Empty Tomb

In my recent studying of different religions, I have come across no compelling evidence that any theology is any more “right” or “wrong” than another. All claim to be “the ONE way,” but I see no reasons why the Koran is any less or more valid than the Torah or the New Testament.

I have asked this question to numerous Christians who were not born into their faith, but sought it out. Some of them with study and inquiries similar to mine here and elsewhere, with an open mind to different spiritual texts and ideas. My brother claims that he as well went through a searching period which included several different faiths before becoming a Christian Youth Pastor.

The one thing that I always hear that PROVES to them that Christ is the way is that “no other religion has an empty tomb.”

Now, the only argument I have come up with to this is that if I dug up my grandma’s coffin and others back a few months later and saw no body, it would not make her God.

So I don’t have any facts about this statement and I look to Christians here to tell me what evidence is there that this is such a poignant difference between Christianity and other faiths, and to the skeptics (and those of other faiths) as to the veracity of this claim?

I am certainly open to the idea that Christianity might be “a way,” but I don’t think it (or anything) is “THE way.” However, this bit of information is crucial - at least it is to the Christians I’ve spoken to…


Yer pal,
Satan

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Satan, Yes, the empty tomb is very important to Christians but so is the Creation of the world by God. However, both are accepted by faith and the same faith that tells me He made everything also leads me to believe that He rose again. Make sense?


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Itchy the flea-filled beagle hound.

I too am bumfuzzled as to what the big deal is about TET…
I wasn’t there to see it myself,nor were you, or, anyone else currently living,
so for me, the jury is still out on it.
Ever played that game as a kid, where everyone sits in a circle, and one starts out whispering to the next & it goes around the circle…
And by time it gets back to the beginning, it’s not quite what the original person said???
WHY is this concept so hard for Christians to grasp…
that possibly, just maybe, in the many, many translations/interpretations of
scripture, things have been CHANGED is ways well never know.

I believe none of it, only what I can historically validate.
Don’t tell me about the Passover festival and stuff.
Anybody who has studied ancient Jewish culture knows when that was.
That proves nothing.

I think it would be terribly amusing if when all these fundamentalists die, they discover
that Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, or whateverism is REALLY the way.

I don’t know, and none of us really will, until that happens to us.(we die)

Off topic slightyly, Satan…sorry.

I think I’m reading your post correctly, and so I think I understand your question. If not, please let me know.

You noted that if you went back and dug up your grandmother’s grave and others and it turned out to be empty, it wouldn’t make her God. And I believe you’re asking why the existence of Jesus’ empty tomb has had such a profound impact on Christians.

With that preface as to my understanding of you question, here’s my attempt at an answer. Keeping in mind this is my first post at GD, please bear with me!

I think the reason the empty tomb is so meaningful to Christians, as opposed to the empty grandmother’s grave in your hypothetical, is that according to Christian scriptures Jesus told his disciples that after he was crucified and buried in the tomb, in three days time he would be risen up to heaven. Hence, when the empty tomb was discovered it was the fulfillment of his prophecies.

Now, if your grandmother had spent her life preaching that she was sent by God to be his only begotten daughter here on earth, had performed the miracles attributed to Jesus in scripture, and had prophesied that after her death her grandson would dig up her grave and find that she had been risen up to be with God, well then your discovery of her empty grave might well serve as the starting point of a religion.

Without trying specifically to debate the accuracy of the empty tomb account, which I personally believe has to be taken on faith or disputed on lack of faith, I think the fulfillment of the specific prophesy is what makes the empty tomb so significant for those who have sought out a religion and been drawn to Christianity.

Hope that helps or at least provides some new food for thought on the subject.

–I am Soren Kierkegaard.–
“People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid.”

As a former Christian, I’ll take a stab at this.

Whether or not it is accurate, I think Christians feel that the empty tomb is the culmination of God’s promise of personal salvation for his followers. Jesus had a physical body that was resurrected. He was given eternal life in the most literal way possible, and any faithful Christian is offered the same.

I don’t think most other religions (with the possible exception of Islam) make that kind of offer.

Here’s a little religion comparison for you. The author’s information is quite dated (it’s from the 1930s), but still enlightening, I feel.

===

 In the Babylonian and Assyrian mythologies we have the chief deities as Ishtar, Tammuz, Baal, and Astarte. In the Phrygian religion we have the Goddess Cybele and her husband Attis. Among the Greeks we have the Goddess Aphrodite and the God Adonis. The Persians had their Mithra. Adonis and Attis flourished in Syria. In the Egyptian religion was found the Goddess Isis and the God Osiris. The Semites have their Jehovah, the Mohammedans their Allah, and the Christians the Goddess Mary, the God the Father, and a son Jesus.

 Christianity has divided itself into Catholicism and Protestantism; and when Protestantism gave the right of interpretation of the Bible to each individual, there were evolved such forms of Protestantism as Christian Science, Holy Rollerism, Seventh Day Adventism, Swedenborgianism, and the cults of the Doukhobors, the Shakers, the Mennonites, the Dunkards and the Salvation Army.

 In the early days of the Church were seen the wrangling of sects, the incomprehensible jargon of Arians, Nestorians, Euthychians, Monotheists, Monophysites, Mariolatrists, etc. Today we behold the incomprehensible jargon of the first-mentioned sects.

 Christ, born of an immaculate virgin, died for mankind, arose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven.

 Buddha, who lived over 500 years before Jesus, was born of the Virgin Maya, which is the same as Mary. Maya conceived by the Holy Ghost, and thus Buddha was of the nature of God and man combined. Buddha was born on December 25, his birth was announced in the heavens by a star, and angels sang. He stood upon his feet and spoke at the moment of his birth; at five months of age he sat unsupported in the air; and at the moment of his conversion he was attacked by a legion of demons. He was visited by wise men, he was baptized, transfigured, performed miracles, rose from the dead, and on his ascension through the air to heaven, he left his footprint on a mountain in Ceylon.

 The Hindu savior, Krishna, was born of a virgin 600 years before Christ. A star shone at his birth which took place in a cave. He was adored by cowherds who recognized his greatness, he performed miracles, was crucified, and is to come to judge the earth.

 Christ died for mankind - so did Buddha and Krishna. Adonis, Osiris, Horus, and Tammuz, all virgin-born gods, were saviors and suffered death. Christ rose from the dead, so have Krishna and Buddha arisen from the dead and ascended into Heaven. So did Lao Kium, Zoroaster, and Mithra.

 A star shone in the sky at the births of Krishna, Rama Yu, Lao Tsze, Moses, Quetzalcoatl, Ormuzd, Rama, Buddha, and others. Christ was born of a virgin, so were Krishna and Buddha. Lao Tze was also born of a virgin. Horus in Egypt was born of the Virgin Isis. Isis, with the child Horus on her knee, was worshipped centuries before the Christian era, and was appealed to under the names of "Our Lady," "Queen of Heaven," "Star of Heaven," "Star of the Sea," "Mother of God," and so forth. Hercules, Bacchus, and Perseus were gods born by mortal mothers. Zeus, father of the gods, visited Semele in the form of a thunderstorm and she gave birth, on the 25th of December, to the great savior and deliverer, Dionysis.

 Mithra was born of a virgin, in a cave, on the 25th of December. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again. He was called savior and mediator and sometimes figured as a lamb. Osiris was also said to be born about the 25th of December; he suffered, died, and was resurrected. Hercules was miraculously conceived from a divine father and was everywhere invoked as a savior. Minerva had a more remarkable birth than Eve; she sprang full-armed from the brow of Jupiter. He did this remarkable feat without even losing a rib.

 The Chinese Tien, the holy one, died to save the world. In Mexico, Quetzalcoatl, the savior, was the son of Chimalman, the Virgin Queen of Heaven. He was tempted, fasted forty days, was done to death, and his second coming was eagerly looked for by the natives. The Teutonic Goddess Hertha, was a virgin, and the sacred groves of Germany contained her image with a child in her arms. The Scandinavian Goddess Frigga was a virgin who bore a son, Balder, healer and savior of mankind.

 When one considers the similarity of these ancient pagan legends and beliefs with Christian traditions if one believes with Justin Martyr, then indeed the Devil must have been a very busy person to have caused these pagans to imitate for such long ages and in such widespread localities the Christian mysteries. Indeed, Edward Carpenter comments, "One has only, instead of the word 'Jesus' to read Dionysis or Krishna or Hercules or Osiris or Attis, and instead of 'Mary' to insert Semele of Devaki or Alcmene or Neith or Nona, and for Pontius Pilate to use the name of any terrestrial tyrant who comes into the corresponding story, and lo! the creed fits in all particulars into the rites and worship of a pagan God."

 It is seen, therefore, that from time immemorial, man does not discover his gods, but invents them. He invents them in the light of his experience and endows them with capacities that indicate the stage of man's mental development.

			- from "The Necessity of Atheism"
				by Dr. David M. Brooks

MaxTorque cited one David Brooks as having written:

Say WHAT?!? Hey, I’m all for the objective study of comparative religion, including the mutual influences of certain incarnation legends, but here at the Straight Dope we’re supposed to pay some attention to the facts!! Neither the Buddha nor Krishna was born of a virgin; the mother of Siddhartha the Buddha was Mahamaya (an Indo-European name which is not etymologically related to Mary from the Semitic Maryam, for cripesake), and his father was the king Shuddhodhana. The orthodox legends of the Buddha say that he was indeed tempted by demons during the 49 days of his meditation under the pipal tree at Gaya, but defeated this temptation well before the moment of his final enlightenment (bodhi—not conversion!). As for Krishna, his legend describes him as the son of Devaki and the king Vasudeva; he is the eighth incarnation of the god Vishnu, and was killed by an arrow. (See A. L. Basham’s The Wonder that was India for a pleasant and detailed discussion of these and many other aspects of Indian religions.) This Brooks guy obviously did his “research” for his book with a shovel and a burlap sack out behind the barn. Sorry to have to dump on a fellow atheist, but he should have learned that spreading lies doesn’t help the cause of rational thought.

Kimstu

oh, it was just a troll? oh. blush

Satan, people are making this more complicated than it really is. You are asking, “What’s the big deal about the ‘empty tomb’?”

The big deal is that Jesus of Nazareth was executed for being a troublemaker. People were following him and claiming (against his express wishes) that he was going to overthrow the Roman government and bring in his kingdom on earth. They completely misunderstood his mission, of course, but that didn’t stop the Jewish authorities, whose power base was also threatened, from working within the Roman law to have him killed.

So, the authorities created a martyr, and, so the reasoning goes, when Jesus’ disciples started going up and down Judea claiming that he’d been raised from the dead, the authorities would have certainly been very motivated to produce a body, if they could have. Evidently, they couldn’t. Nobody anywhere says, “Here was where the authorities laid out a body and claimed it belonged to the late Jesus of Nazareth.” It was a corporate stumper.

THAT’S the “big deal” about the “empty tomb”. If there had been a body to produce, you can bet your sweet bippy that High Priest Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and everybody else on down concerned with the mess would have been very interested in producing it. But they didn’t.


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

Oops, I left out something.

It also means that every other organized religion has some kind of official “burial place” of its founder. Even if it’s just where he was “supposed to have been buried”, it’s still official.

Christianity doesn’t have anything like this.

Since Jesus was resurrected from the dead, and 40 days later ascended bodily into Heaven, obviously he isn’t buried anywhere, hence the “empty tomb”.

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

There are three books by C.S. Lewis that you should read.

*The Screwtape Letters.

Mere Christianity.

Miracles.*


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

A few things have always amazed me about Chrisians.

  1. Their whole belief system is based on an almost completely historically unsubstantiated book of dubious authorship.

  2. They argue and quibble amoungst themselves regarding the meaning of obscure passages and words in the text even though its highly likely that the original survives.

  3. They are the world’s biggest hypocrites. They support the death penalty in contradiction to Christ’s teachings. They lie, cheat, kill, cheat on their spouses, pass by beggars without giving alms,and go to war, all the time claiming to be the followers of a humble carpenter from Nazareth who condemned such practices. They support huge organizations which rake in tons of money and follow preachers who preach hate and intolerance against other people.

And yes, there are a few exceptions. But they are truly exceptions.

Ahem…And now back to our regularly scheduled debate!

This is a little off-topic, but I think relevant to the OP. Some years ago, I read a strange book, called Holy Blood, Holy Grail. The first part of the book recites some really mind-numbing historical investigation, the second half is the elucidation of a theory. My knowledge of this part of history isn’t good enough to evaluate the book, and I would be interested to hear from someone who can.

The premise of the book is basically this: There is a worldwide secret organization (yes, just like in the conspiracy theories) that has proof that the crucifiction and resurrection were faked.

This would certainly explain the empty tomb. Whether or not their facts are good, they do point out some interesting things:
-Jesus died on the cross awfully fast. Most guys tended to hang around for days.
-Usually the breaking of the legs is done as an act of mercy, as it leads to immediate suffocation and death. Jesus died pretty soon after they mentioned doing that.
-Someone held a sponge up to him that had been dipped in something, he took a whiff, and then expired. What if that something just knocked him out?

I’m sorry I can’t give any more info on the book at this time, as I am about 5,000 miles away from it. I recall thinking a lot of things in it were a little too bizarre, and other things, well, certainly something to think about.

Doesn’t take away from the basic question of fairness: If I witnessed someone die, then rise from the dead 3 days later, I probably would believe. Everyone else has to believe on faith or go to hell, but the witnesses get a free pass, whether they would have believed on faith or not.


Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.

For me, while the empty tomb is at the heart of what I believe, it’s never been at the heart of why I believed in the first place.

For me, the reason for being Christian has always been about what I believe to be the ongoing, transforming, renewing presence of Christ in my life. I believe in Christ, and in the empty tomb, because His presence is real to me, rather than believing in Christ because of the empty tomb.

I hate to criticize someone else’s recommendations, but my guess is that C.S. Lewis won’t really do much for you. I personally found his theology in Mere Christianity rather wooden, unimaginative, and limited; Screwtape Letters was amusing but not particularly deep. I never have been able to find a reason to keep reading very far in Miracles.

OTOH, if you’re interested in the empty tomb, you just might find it worthwhile to blow ten bucks on a copy of Resurrection by Rowan Williams. Williams is that rare creature, a theologian who writes from the heart - and even rarer, he’s a wondrously good writer. While his intended audience is those who already believe in Christ, this is the sort of book I’d give to an intelligent nonbeliever who had an interest in Christianity.

If you give this one a try, let me know what you think.


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Okay, I don’t think anyone here is getting me.

Everyone seems to be talking “metaphoric.” Frankly, if all the phrase really means is a quick way of summing up, “He died for us and rose again,” then it’s easy for me to dismiss by simply saying, “Muhammad got the word from Gabriel,” or whatever.

I was assuming, however, that that wasn’t the case. As I said, people who checked out many different religions and philosophies decided that Christianity was the way to go FOR THIS VERY REASON ALONE! This reason - to them - set Christianity apart from the other religions.

So, what if you are Jewish and a Christain says, “Empty tomb.” How would you respond?

More importantly, what evidence is there that there WAS (or is still) a literal “Empty Tomb,” how do we know that in and of itself necessarily means anything profound, and is it a case where non-believers think that it’s simply bullshit and they don’t buy it on rasons of faith, or is there factual basis to dismiss this?


Yer pal,
Satan

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Brian -

Every place I’ve ever been has used it as a summing up for “he fufilled the prophecy - he died and rose again.” If it was mentioned at all. Personally, I am tending now to more think of Jesus as a great prophet, rather than the Messiah. Which is kind of hard to accept, seeing as I’ve been a Catholic all my life, but this is not the thread for my religious issues. :slight_smile:

Anyway…I have a few stories (two, really) that you might be interested in reading, Brian. A friend wrote them, which is why I can’t post them here. One deals directly with your last paragraph, and the other…well, the other I think you’d enjoy based on your screenname. Emali me if you want to see them.


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Environment? Nah. Mood lighting and ambience is what counts.

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Perhaps when we make these types of inquires we should start by looking at the assumptions we may already be making.

Jesus was not the only figure in the (Christian) bible who raised (resurrected) the dead. Old Testaments prophets Elijah and Elisha (1-Kings 18, 2-Kings 4) are two that I am aware of credited with this feat. An interesting note the bones of Elisha (he had died and was entombed) also restored a dead man to life (2-Kings 13). I bring this up for two major reasons, the first that there are amazing similarities between the accounts of Elijah, Elisha and Jesus restoring a dead child. The second is that we seem to have a tendency to look at the finished products (it is an often under appreciated fact of just how much admitted editing was involved) i.e. the bible and it’s associated theology. When Christians and others deal with The Empty Tomb there is a significant amount of baggage imposed, which I believe cannot be entirely separated from the story itself. The world in which Jesus lived played a role in both what was written and how it was received which indirectly influences our reactions. Would your reverence for the bible, the church (general heading non-sectatrian) customs, traditions and personalities (clergy and lay persons) be the same without the knowledge not only of related history but the testimony (example witness) of others.

Jesus was not the only biblical figure to bodily ascend into heaven … trivia name two others.

The statement that Jesus fulfilled prophecies is much more subjective then most are willing to admit. The Dead Sea Scrolls are often cited as supporting generally accepted Christians beliefs; however there are many writings in that collection which are somewhat at odds with orthodox views. The so called Gnostic Gospels which are of equal antiquity are for the most part ignored by “biblical scholars”.

A final note the early church(?) was ordinally referred to as followers of “The Way”.


I believe in neither the Religion of Science nor the Science of Religion

Satan asked:

I would say, “Excuse me?” Especially if he just up and said it out of the blue! :wink:

But more seriously, my response would be: “Prove it. Then get back to me. See ya.”

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one! Enoch and Elijah!

Brian, the question is pretty simple, really. Big question for all of us (yeah, atheists included): What happens when we die? Lots of answers from lots of beliefs – none with any evidence but the local theology.

According to three Gospels and the long ending for Mark, Jesus stopped being dead on the first Easter Sunday, as he had supposedly predicted he would. He was not:
[list][li]A normal human body – he could appear and disappear at will.[/li][li]A ghost – he ate a fish dinner with the Eleven; Thomas could touch his wounds.[/li][li]A fictional entity – those who had known him intimately were firmly convinced it was him, even though they had been in despair at having lost him at the Crucifixion.[/li]
Now, David can post an extensive rebuttal to whether the Gospels are telling anything like the truth. But the fact is that according to people who had expected “OK, he went around teaching and healing, got turned into a scapegoat by the Jewish leaders and Pilate, and was killed; it’s over; time to get on with our lives” he came back, taught for a while, and ascended to Heaven. I dislike stretching incredulity to suggest that this was wish-fulfillment, urban legend, or other source-of-untruth. His body being missing from the tomb is proof of the Resurrection on this basis. If you are looking for proof of one religion’s strength over others, Christianity stands or falls on this one fact. I’m not necessarily trying to sell you on my faith, though I’d dearly like to, but to make the case that traditional Christianity has seen as core of their belief structure. A little church in Wendell has a sign outside “Christmas was the promise; Easter is the proof.” I think you can see what they mean.

If someone came up to me and said “empty tomb,” first, I’d question their sanity. After ascertaining that maybe they were talking about christ, I’d say a few of the following:

Bajillions of translations

–or–

My book that hails the banana peel I found yesterday as God says that, as I slipped on the peel, it is God. Same amount of evidence that you have.

–or–

Gospel of Thomas (something interesting I was talking about with my friends earlier this week)

my 2 cents, give or take a few bucks