The end of a copyright experiment. RIAA shows its true colors.

Here is the main idea that clairobscur is missing: information has value. The value of a song may be $.99 on itunes or a show may be worth $4.99 oh Hulu or a book may be worth $14.95 at Barnes & Nobel. The point being is that if I pirate a book or software or whatever, I am denying the creator (OK technically the copyright holder who may or may not be the creator) the value of that copy of information.

Now here is when it gets tricky. What if the information has no vlaue? Either because there is no inherent market that would pay for it (like my article) or because it is unavailable from the copyright owner. The question then is: is it OK to make a copy because it is not costing the copyright owner anything in terms of lost potential for revenue? It may be a bit abstract but my article took my time and energy. I created something that no one had before. My question is not would you copying it be stealing anything from me (I guess technically it wouldn’t) but rather why you should receive the benefit of my labor against my express desires. In other words, why if I did the work should your right to free information outweigh how I choose to have the product of my labor distributed?

And another question - if you couldn’t get paid for it, would you bother writing it in the first place?

Copyrighted work has a value to society as history and as art. There are at least some cases where copyright holders are required to license others to perform or reproduce their work for a fixed payment.

It makes little sense to me to characterize a film student’s sense that they should be able to view a classic movie, one that was influential on the career of their favorite actors and directors, as “rationalizing thievery.”

Whatever anyone says, when it comes right down to it, copyright is about enforcing control over the channels of distribution. About ensuring that the holder of the right controls the means to profit by it.

I could make one or 70 billion digital copies of a work and no harm is done until I try to distribute them without consent (a contract with the copyright holder).

The problem is the internet has totally changed the distribution channel for digital media and the studios and networks failed to see the market emerge and were slow to adapt. This isn’t just thieves and pirates. This is straight up market demand rejecting the classic channels of distribution and pricing structure. When the studios and networks develop a distribution scheme that mollifies the majority, sharing of copyrighted works by torrent will drop off. Itunes distribution model did far more for the studios at far less cost to them than their campaign to stamp out file sharing ala napster et. al.

The internet opened up a global marketplace. Until the studios and networks that continue to insist on acting by old regional practices adapt to this, they will continue to struggle and struggle against file sharing.

It isn’t just the newspapers that were and are affected by the internet. All digitize able media is going to suffer the same loss of value to their product. Like it or not, this is as it should be. Pricing structures for a lot of media are still formulated on the old models of distribution on physical media. Time for them to wake up and smell the coffee.

Stealing is stealing. Stop trying to rationalize it by blaming the victim.

When people get what they want they’ll stop stealing? Great!

You have good points, but you need to state that stealing is wrong before anyone will listen to you.

Yes, and many enter the public domain all the time.

Lots wouldn’t exist if the creators couldn’t get paid first.

If you steal something it’s thievery. Citing really really good reasons for stealing is rationalization.

The film student can pay for the classic movie.

Besides, did it occur to you that the classic movie wouldn’t have been made in the first place without copyright protection?

Before I go any further, I want to address a minor point in this debate. Arguing that “The law is the law because it’s the law.” is circular and pointless. I haven’t seen anyone here put forth the idea that the legal rights don’t exist, only that they are outdated, unenforceable, or unethical. If you truly believe that the law is the sole arbiter of ethical behaviour, then say that and have done with it. I’ll happily abandon my efforts in this thread if that is the case, as we really have nothing further to say to one another on the topic. Law is malleable and changes with the times and standards of the people it governs. Many of us believe that ethics exist independently of whatever legal standards may exist.

Let’s talk about a photograph then, and set all other examples aside.

Access: A photo is visual media. Presumably, that means that any person with functional eyes who stumbles across your image is capable of viewing it. That logically dictates that if you want to control access to* viewing* your image (rather than reproducing, we’ll deal with that later) then you must restrict the places it is available. Now, understanding that, you still want to profit from your image, and know that people generally won’t pay for visual content they haven’t viewed; you put up your image on Banquet Bear.com as an example of the book or digital set you are hawking.

Now stop.

The moment you put that image up, you just contributed to our shared culture. You just freely disseminated* access *to that specific content to anyone who accesses your page. You may have done so as a necessity, but nonetheless that specific image is now accessible by anyone who chooses to view it. I’m not arguing that in doing so you abdicate all your rights to controlling that image; but it is equally ludicrous to claim that after freely disseminating access to an image to the world at large that you still maintain complete and total control over said access). Understand? The cat is out of the bag and cannot be put back in. Even IF you were somehow able to control every “copy” of the image that was viewed, it still exists outside of that physical media in peoples’ minds. So the right of “access” is really nothing more than a pipe dream now, left over from a time when physical media made such things easier.

*Reproduction: * This is an entirely different kettle of fish from access. I believe that the point of copyright is to protect an artist from the THEFT of their work by others who intend to use it for profit. It is reasonable then that an artist should be able to control unauthorized reproduction of their work where money is being exchanged. So let’s use our standing example of a photo set. Suppose that you control access to the content by keeping it behind a paywall. To view the set one must pay Banquet Bear.com for their “copy”. If I hacked that paywall and took your photos I was certainly stealing from you. This is comparable to pirating films; the content and access is directly paid for by the consumer, and accessing it without paying is theft. We agree on this point.

Now let us consider a slightly different example: The photo *single *you gave away promotionally on the website to get me interested in the set. In the old days, if I wanted my very own copy, I’d have to pay you. Unfortunately, technology has rendered that model extinct, so we should then determine a new definition of “fair use” for content that is freely disseminated to the public at some point; if only to reflect the reality of the world. This example is comparable to TV shows, or songs played over the radio to anyone who might be listening. I think on this point there is room for discussion by both sides to come to a compromise. At a minimum I would suggest that license for personal use is conferred by the model.

That brings us to derivative work. I would agree with you that the example you provided is infringement. Simply taking the exact same image, coloring it funny, and slapping a sticker on it is not a legitimate new work. (it is the exact content being used) OTOH, what about a painter who paints an original version of that image? This is where it can get tricky. I also think there is room for discussion on this portion of the topic. What do you control? The right over any image of a man with dreadlocks standing in a forest? Some people argue their case that way. Others take a narrower view. I think that we need to create a model, (perhaps a sliding scale) that helps us to determine how much of a derivative work is unique. One idea might be that above a certain percentage the derivative maker must begin to pay royalties. Go into the next category and it is simply infringement, and whatever penalties are relevant should fall. We see a bit of this in music sampling, and I think that a good law should protect and benefit everyone.

Lastly, let’s talk a bit about orphaned, or mothballed content. In the former, the rights should simply become public after a reasonable search is conducted. In the latter, I would suggest a “use it or lose it” model in regards to content that was at one point available to the public. There is room for discussion on this as well.

You falsely assume that the sole reason for the creation of all creative work is profit. That is simply not the case.

And how do you know when the creator did it for profit? *When he copyrights his work.
*

Nobody is saying that.

Lots of people here are busy giving excuses for why they should be able to VIOLATE the law. Feel free to advocate changing the law, but don’t simply ignore it because you don’t like it.

Bolding mine.

Same difference. A bad law is a bad law; and if it is inadequate, unethical, or irresponsible, then I don’t have any ethical reason to respect it merely because it is the institution. Prior to 2003, over fifteen states had sodomy laws in the books. Should homosexuals stop being gay or loving each other because of a bad law? Of course not. We have a long history of simply ignoring bad, unenforceable law until it is changed. Copyright law is rapidly becoming such a fossil. It doesn’t need to be thrown out, but it does badly need reform, and until we get law that is logical I don’t see what many people do as rationalizing criminal behaviour; at least not from an ethical standpoint, which is my concern.

Then I expect you to be sued.

Comparing sexual freedom with the freedom to steal stuff is lame.

Is the law denying consumers of copyrighted material anything they are entitled to? If not, then you have no ethical claim to it.

What exactly would you tell an author, musician or artist to convince them that it’s okay for you violate copyright?

And what would you tell them that needs to be changed in the law?

Except copyright law is none of these three. It has kept pace with the current age (DCMA), it is very enforcable as witness to all of the case law, and it is ethical to have rules in place to give a creator certain rights to their creations. In fact, the only real argument I’ve seen against the copyright laws is that people disagree with them and believe information once distributed should be free for all.

Ethics and the law are not independent. Whether right or wrong, laws reflect the ethics of the community. If a community believes homosexuality, adultery, same-sex marriage, or profanity is unethical then it will be outlawed in that community.
But it is not a perfect reflection. There can be a conflict of ethics such as the national ethic that people should not be oppressed because of their religion trumps Podunktown’s ethic that it is sinful to be a non-Christian. But even that is not perfect. Does the ethic that a person has a right to reproductive privacy outweigh the ethic of not aborting a fetus? Yes but there are many that disagree with that. There are also ethical concerns that really don’t deal with ethics. Do current drug laws really reflect ethics (e.g. smoking tobacco is “right” while smoking pot is “wrong”). Does ban on SSM really reflect ethics or is it more reflective of selected religious dogma? But wait Cad, religious dogma IS ethics for many. Ah yes, but according to the 1st Amendment, it is the national ethic that this is not a country built on religious law but civil law.

OK. Let’s.

Good point. It is indeed fortunate that it is case law that weblinks are not violations of copyright law. You still cannot copy a photo and post it on your website but you can link to it instead.

This is really your big mistake. Copyright law is not about profit but rather should the holder of IP be the one to decide how it gets disseminated. I have said before that even though you may not profit from illegally downloading that song, you have cost the copyright holder the value of the lost revenue since you did not buy their work. That even applies to information that is “free”. Suppose a website wants to use my article in their site. They must allow ME to determine if I wish to place a value on my work. I may say (actually must be written), “Give me $10.” or “No problem. Go ahead.” or even “No. You cant use it.”

Yes we do. This would be the “lost revenue” model. So we agree to extend the definition of stealing beyond the thief making a profit to denying the copyright holder the opportunity to receive revenue for their work, even if only that solitary instance.

If given away freely? Yes so I’m not really sure where you’re going with that. I think what you’re saying is that if you have a picture on your website of a funny looking cat to get me interested in buying your set of funny cats, shold I be allowed to copy it to my hard drive for my own use? I don’t think anyone would argue that. It’s like time-shift viewing with a VCR (now a DVR). I may want to enlarge the photo because the copy on the webpage is too small for me to see. The question is would it be fair use for me to use it as my desktop wallpaper? That’s the gray area we have today with fair use so again, I don’t see much of a difference.

Again, same gray area we face today.

Interesting point. Can I assume then that if IP has not been abandoned, then the holder can still refuse to make copies i.e. you cannot force me to give you a copy if I do not want. Oh and for the discussion, you deciding without permission to xerox my article is forcing me to give you a copy because I as the copyright holder had no choice in whether or not you got that copy.

So you have searched for the copyright holder and cannot find them or they have no clue what’s going on.
“What was that called? Zork Zero? Never heard of it.”
“But you have the copyright for the game.”
“I don’t think we do.” <click>
In this case, should the default be that the copyright holds or that it is now non-copyrighted. The reason I find this issue to be so facinating is if we were talking about a different form of IP, namely the trademark, then you are talking about an abandoned trademark which to some extent (trademarks are funny things) give you the right to use it. Here is where I see the difference. I am applying for a servicemark (a type of trademark). That has to go through the US Patent and Trademark Office so there are records of what field I’m using it in and my contact info etc. There is no likewise requirement for a copyright. It is optional to record things with the US Copyright Office and without a mandatory papertrail, how do we know whether you spent months trying to track down a copyright holder or did a 2 minute online search and said “Fuck it. Can’t find who owns it.” Because of this, I think the default has to be that you cannot copy information without permission of the holder. If you can’t find the holder, then it sucks but it’s better than the alternative of claiming you don’t know who holds the copyright to that Lady Gaga song. Is it Stefani Germanotta? Interscope Records? Universal Music Group? Vivindi? I don’t know so let me just download it.

I think we might have to agree to disagree on the point of enforcement. Certainly the Holders can sue, and will likely win, but the numbers game is ultimately against them, hence my position of practicality.

This is a fair point, which I concede to you. I would point out though that this issue would likely be of greater concern to the public if there were not far more pressing matters at hand; like the flagging economy, certain civil rights issues, etc.

I think this difference might simply be philosophical. The problem here is that a file isn’t a “thing”. It doesn’t cost anything to make, or distribute from person to person. I’ll grant that hosting etc does cost money, but we are seeing new models like I-tunes start to find middle ground.

Sure, I’ve never said that the entirety of such a model is fraudulent. I do think though that this argument needs to be limited to that content that is: A. Always restrained by a paywall, and B. where said content is paid for directly by the consumer. No middle men allowed.

Let’s talk about this a little then. I discussed it upthread, but I’ll re-cap it here. Basically, content that is distributed freely* to the consumer*, like network television, or singles on the radio shouldn’t be subject to the same restrictions that paywall and direct to consumer content is. It is inherently different in that it was disseminated* to the public* without any contract, license or recompense. Therefore to ask the public for money, or restrict certain types of viewing after the fact is just hypocritical. I posit that there is no logical or ethical reason to impose a particular time or file limit on this type of material. If NBC gives away Grimm every Monday night, then it isn’t wrong for me watch it later if I missed it. They didn’t ask for money for it, it wasn’t paid for by the public. It was paid for by ad companies (middlemen) in an effort to keep me in my chair for ads. It is a promotion rather than a product. When a radio station pays Lady Gaga for that single, they then give it away to all their listeners. I can’t deprive Lady Gaga of a single sale because I’m not buying it from her. I got it for free from the Radio station, who gave it away in an effort to try to sell me the restricted content. (which we agree on philosophically in regards to theft)

Of course we could take the counter argument that such companies are providing a very limited license of use to the public in their broadcasts. However, a logical extension of that leads into silliness where we cannot distinguish between the product and the access. I pay for cable, so am I paying for access to all those channels, the content on them or both? If it is the first, the content is completely promotional. If the second, then when and how I view is irrelevant, and if the third
is true then my payment should grant me a fairly unrestricted personal use of the material.

So because you got something free last week at the store, they can’t ever charge you for it again if you want more?

It’s their property. They can give it away, or charge you for it, at any time.

And they may be “hypocritical” (I don’t agree), that’s not your business.

If you get it for free or buy it from someone else who is violating the copyright, you are denying NBC the right to sell it to you instead.

The one that aired was. Not the copy you got later. (I’m not talking about you recording it for your own benefit only).

And nobody is saying you are stealing by listening to the radio.

But if you buy or get for free an unauthorized copy, Lady Gaga was deprived of a sale. And if you make a copy and distribute it, same thing.

You are not paying to make copies and distribute them, that’s for sure.

No, you cannot have unrestricted use of the material. You pay for what you pay for. You can’t claim any more than that.

What thing? Here again is the problem of Physical “things” vs Digital media. How do you distinguish between copies without a physical thing?

Unless of course it happens to be one of the free copies which are indistinguishable from the other “bad” ones.

But my recorded copy is exactly the same content as the one my friend gave me. How do we tell the difference? He recorded it on his DVR, so it’s a free one right? If not, tell me exactly what the difference is in them and how *exactly *the creator is being deprived.

You read the license or refer to copyright law.

So?

A bottle of Breck Shampoo is a copy of the last bottle you got. It’s indistinguishable. Doesn’t mean you can steal the second one.

There’s no difference.

It’s the ACT of taking a copy in violation of copyright that is illegal. It doesn’t matter what the status of the copy is or where it came from.

Wrong. It is completely distinguishable. You have two bottles instead of one. You have 64 oz now instead of 32, you have two labels, two caps. You have two bottles worth of delivery, and shipping and you have two bottles worth of usable product where you only recompensed the retailer for one.

Now, place two files on your desktop. One is a legitimate download, the other a pirated copy. How do we distinguish between them? Well, much like your shampoo, the content is identical, so we have to throw that out. Since they don’t exist in physical space, we can’t make an argument that we’ve defrauded the manufacturer, shipper, or retailer of money spent in production. We don’t have twice the product either; we just have two copies of the same thing. It isn’t a consumable thing. It’s just an idea on a screen, and no matter how many times you watch it or copy it, it doesn’t change, or get “used up”.

That is the crux of certain parts of this argument.

And that is where you lose this argument because it is never ever about the object but rather information. That’s why the field is intellectual property. Did you know that a patent does not require a physical model (unless patenting a perpetual motion machine). So I make a patent for a device that can tell when eggs are spoiled. I never make a model but I file a patent and someone else takes my patent application and starts manufacturing the FreshEgg 1000™. What have they stolen from me?

You’re making it too complicated. You’re action cost me the $1 in royalties you would need to pay me. If you do not want to pay $1, then don’t buy the picture. Your choice but you do not get both.

First of all, time-shifting is perfectly legal. You should really read up on Sony Corporation of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. because it covers all of this. The difference I see is that when you use the recording to replace buying the song/movie/TV show then it is no longer fair use. I think we have agreed already that copying a song so you do not have to pay the $.99 to iTunes should not be allowed.
Like any use of the fair-use doctrine, it is open to interpretation as to what the intentions are. For example, Doctor Who is available on DVD. Can I use my DVR to record Doctor Who and watch it later? Yes. Can I watch it multiple times? I don’t believe that has ever been definatively answered by the courts. It’s an interplay between advertisers, syndication rights, numbers of viewers, etc. so theoretically me not watching the rerun on BBCA because it is still on my DVR could affect someone but (a) would it be the copyright holder [they sold the syndication rights] and (b) is there a de minimus defense. I do know that for all practical purposes, keeping a show on the DVR is considered fair use.

OK but now I decide I want to see ALL of the Doctor Whos so I crank up BitTorrent and download them. I am clearly avoiding paying the $9.95 (or whatever) per season by not buying the DVDs. There is no way that is fair use and clearly I am costing BBCA $9.95 x 6 and therefore it is stealing. Similarly I record Lady Gaga so I don’t have to buy it of iTunes? Stealing.

The problem we’re facing right now is that we have the ability to make perfect copies of data, but not of physical objects. I would say copyright needs to move to a certain configuration of bits and bytes - like a checksum - but that can always be duplicated. We need to find some sort of model that lets a digital file be unique, so we can get around the ‘it’s not a physical thing we’re stealing, it’s just a copy, so ha I’m not a thief!’ issue.