The Ethics Of Closing Threads

Great Debates
1

Shouldn’t the owner(s) of Straight Dope, assuming they conduct their business peacefully and honestly, be allowed to discriminate in any way they wish? Why are they accountable to explain why they delete “this thread”, but leave “that thread” alone? Nickz, David, Gaudere, Tuba, Manhattan, and the others are authorized representatives of the owners.

I see no reason why they should have to explain themselves. Perhaps they are simply more tolerant of drugs than they are of violence. Perhaps they had a bad hair day.

In any case, it’s their site, and of course, that means they have rights to it.

It is not our “right to free speech” that we exercise here. We exercise the right of the property owner to allow us (or not) to speak.

2

Because we use this board and we therefore own it, damnit!!!

I cannot count the times that I have seen somebody use this argument. I agree that, although one moderator may from time to time be in error, people should respect the moderators more than they do. The people who actually own this board apparently saw our current moderators fit to act in the same way as they would in regard to disputes on the board, so I think that we should respect thier decisions.

You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right.

–Lyndon B. Johnson

3

And besides, what are your choices?

4

Your choices?

Well, that depends on the magnitude of your political clout. With enough of it, in America, you could set in motion a chain of events resulting in asset forfeiture and seizure of their property. With very little of it, you can’t do squat.

5

Lib, I agree with much of what you (and threemae) said. I understand that as representatives of the Chicago Reader the moderators can close whatever threads they wish and I never said I had the right to post whatever I want or to demand an explanation. I do feel it’s reasonable for me to ask for an explanation however. Whether I receive one or not is up to Nickrz.

I would also like to clarify that the crime being discussed in the thread in question was not violent in nature.

6

ACLU Free Speech Zone

7

Little Nemo

Well, by e-mail, certainly. But you have no right to ask on this site unless they permit it.

Thanks. I stand corrected. As I recall now, it was a discussion on laundering money, wasn’t it?

Nevertheless, as I said, they need no reason. Not ethically, anyway. At least, not by libertarian ethics.

I expect any day now that I will be chided for opening new threads despite that that’s exactly what I was advised to do, as you can see here. If they decide to ban me altogether, even for no reason at all, that is their right.

8

Otto

Well, this quote was interesting from your link:

Whether the negotiations succeed will depend on how politically expedient the lawmakers find their arguments to be.

9

As a site owner and one that will be incorporating a message board on it (using the same software as used on the SDMB BTW) I will have to carefully use my judgement, specially since the site is Libertarian in it’s views.

That said, if I see anything that is considered threatening to another person in terms of bodily harm, then yes the thread will not only be removed but may be subject to forwarding to local authorities.

I am all for free speech and will ask my users to be considerate of others users including asking that they keep their language at a PG-13 level…although if the occasion cuss word comes up I wouldn’t close or delete the thread.

I 'spose it’s a judgement call as I am sure I will be dealing with the same thing in the near future…

10

For those who work message boards and those who are interested in the topic, quoted below is the message board policy of the ACLU Online forum currently on AOL and soon to be moving entirely to the web (although still in a limited partnership with AOL). I’ve removed the “who’s who” portion of it. We’ve found this policy works pretty well in balancing the concerns of our membership in maintaining a free speech zone and the technical nuts and bolts quality of life type issues that can plague message boards. If anyone has comments on it, please feel free.

=============================================Posters should…be advised that board hosts are encouraged to engage in active debate and express their opinions as freely as our guests.

Supercategories:

  1. The ACLU message boards contain eight “Supercategories.” They will appear first when you access the message boards. When you open any one of them with “List All,” they will give you a list of the regular categories therein. When you open any one of them with “List Unread” or “Find,” they will give you a list of the topic folders therein. If you open any one of the regular categories that seems of interest to you, you will then find all of the topic folders in that category.

Categories:

1a) Categories are the main folders in which topic folders reside.

Topic Folders:

1b) Topic Folders are the sub folders found within Category Folders. When listing topics, the default will show all folders which have been active within the last 30 days. The default can be changed to a longer or shorter period by selecting “Preferences” after accessing a topic. Also under “Preferences” the default will list latest postings first, but can be changed to oldest postings first.

1c) If someone is new to the boards, it will be necessary to set the “Preferences” back to find any messages posted before the 30 day default, or to find the beginning of the folder.

Creating Topic Folders:

  1. Topic folders can be created by request…Please post the name of the folder you want to open and a brief description of what you want to discuss. We will let you know by E-mail when it has been created.

2a) We will open any folder request providing it is not essentially a duplicate of an existing folder and providing it is not in violation of our Message Board Policy.

Spamming:

  1. Spamming is the creation of essentially identical messages into different folders. It is not allowed on this Message Board except where it is allowed in paragraph (4). Spamming is a technical violation. Our rules on spamming are forum rules, not AOL rules, but continued actions by a poster, in defiance of warnings about spamming, may be reported to AOL for action.

3a) It should be noted that when a person posts the same message to a number of folders, it is a major annoyance to other guests, and regardless of any sympathy they may have for the content of the message, it will act more to antagonize the people to whom one might otherwise appeal with the message. It is not a productive method to present an opinion or argument or express one’s case or viewpoint.

3b) It is impossible to list every conceivable technical violation, but any action which is intentionally and obviously taken to consume board space or to otherwise prevent other members from posting is considered a technical violation and will be treated as such. More than one posting of the same post in a folder in one day will be removed, but inasmuch as it is frequently not intentional, no warning will be sent unless the postings are excessive. The forum will be the judge of what constitutes such technical violations. Such violations may result in deletions, forum warnings, and/or reporting the incident to AOL for further action.

Identical Posts:

  1. Identical posts will be allowed, as long as they are no greater than two in number and posted to two different categories. Anything over two identical posts will be considered spamming and will be deleted (see paragraph 3)

Folder Archives (removal from the boards to the archive):

  1. Links to the archives are available in the scroll menu. Folders showing no new postings for at least 30 days may be taken out at the discretion of the Board Moderators. In all categories, small and inactive folders, meaning folders with few recent responses or showing a lack of interest, will be archived at the discretion of the Board Moderators. The removal of a folder is done according to the lack of activity, not content. Currently active folders will not be removed. Folders of particular interest and considerable activity in the past may be retained on the boards even after a long period of inactivity.

**6) This is a free speech forum. It is not without rules and regulations or supervision, but it is considerably less regulated than most of AOL. If you find that disturbing, you may want to find a more regulated environment.

6a) Most forum actions consist of written warnings. Some warnings may state that no further forum action will be taken, but that members may choose to report certain conduct to higher authorities, including TOS or legal authorities.

6b) There are laws against certain forms of speech such as slander, defamation of character, and harassment. Accusations of this sort, however, are legal allegations that are best decided by a court of law; we do not arbitrarily make that determination. It is, of course, the prerogative of any poster who feels any laws have been violated to pursue legal action. Posters are responsible for what they post, and should realize there may be serious consequences for illegal behavior.**

  1. Our TOS exemption is for language and content that might be found offensive or otherwise unacceptable elsewhere on AOL. Such violations do not apply to the ACLU forum. If anyone has had such a violation recently or has one still standing presently, please let us know, with documentation, and we will do what we can to have it rescinded. It is necessary, however, that we know about the TOS violation before we can take any action on your behalf.

8) Please be advised that there are also some AOL rules that do apply to all boards, including these boards, and they include such things as rules against advertising, AOL staff impersonation, impersonating a minor, impersonation of another member, and revealing what appears to be personal information about another member that would identify them in the real world and which they have not otherwise made public online. Posts containing links to any area that would violate these rules will be removed.

8a) Advertising is the buying, selling or trading of any commercial product or service, including personal items, such as want ads, or the solicitation of money, such as for investment, charities, or private gatherings. We do not allow posts containing any form of advertisement or any solicitation of names and addresses or other personal information for commercial purposes.

  1. We do not allow the posting of addresses or phone numbers that appear to be of a personal nature or are otherwise questionable. Exceptions will be made for the addresses and/or phone numbers of legitimate, public institutions and organizations, unless proven to be fraudulent or in error.

9a) The solicitation of names, addresses, and phone numbers of minors for any purpose is not allowed.

  1. TOS/CAT does NOT police this area. We monitor our own boards in accordance with certain AOL rules and our own policy regarding technical violations, but be advised that members may take certain complaints to TOS for action.

  2. Any violation concerning a screen name, such as staff or member impersonation, is an AOL issue as the forum has no access to any member’s account information. We wi

11

They don’t ‘have’ to do anything, but to explain their actions would indicate “a decent respect to the opinions of mankind,” so to speak.

12

Libertarian, why is it every time someone expresses an opinon you assume that they mean to go out and force everyone to comply, or that they are sitting at home simmering over the huge injustice the world is doing them? Every one knows that the Board has all the rights here, and most of us prefer it that way. We have all seen totally unmoderated boards, and know that they degenerate quickly into unreadablity. But the fact is, we are a group of very opininated people, and we like to discuss our personal views. No one is under any delusion that thier opinon carries any weight–we are just all egoists who like to say what we think and see how others view the same issue.

You do this all the time, Libertarian. It looks like this:
[parody]

Me: My sister just died her hair yellow. It looks stupid. She has sallow skin and it clashes horribly.

Poster #1: I don’t like it when people dye thier hair weird colors.

Poster #2: I love Asian girls with blue hair.

Libertarian: Why shouldn’t people be allowed to dye or not dye thier hair as they wish? As long as the are p&h, who cares?

[/parody]

You see? People can have opinions and views without thinking that those views ought to be enforced by the SS. We’re just chatting. If you think about it, I think that you will see that libertarianism more or less demands that forums such as this exist: Libertarianism, unlike, say, a monarchy, demands that people know what they believe in and have opinions on various issues in their community. Most people do not come up with sound views if they formulate them in vaccum; instead they come up with manifestos. We need to sit here and talk about what we believe in an innocous forum so that we can better function as citizens.

And furthermore, just as p&h people have the right to do whatever they want, I as a p&h person have the right to think they are idiots, or silly, or wise, or odd, and the right to express my opinion in this forum.

To bring this back on topic, I think your complaint is better coached in terms of ettiquitte than libertairian philosophy. Many people have compared the board to a fantastic party that the *Chicago Reader * is throwing and we are all guests. As hosts, they of course have the right to do whatever they wish. Now, it is a very good point to suggest that is is rude to discuss, within hearing of our hosts, the reasons they have chosen to do things we don’t like: “Why ever did they hang those drapes? They look atrocious.” However, accuse us of being tacky, not of presuming that our private opinons have any real weight.

13

Except that the hosts have invited us to make remarks within their hearing, and by locating those remarks in the Pit they tacitly accept that they will, or at least can, be rude.

14

Manda JO

Thank you for a thoughtful criticism thoughtfully expressed.

I should point out, though, that a monarchy can be libertarian, just as a democracy might not be. Any government that secures the rights of its citizens is libertarian, no matter what form it takes.

Libertarianism is not a system or a form of government, but merely a context (of peace and honesty) in which any arbitrary system or form might be used. A libertarian monarchy, for example, would consist of people who have freely consented that a king secure their rights.

15

A commercial message board is a democracy of the best kind - if you don’t like the way they do things, you can vote with your feet and go elsewhere.

That’s the controlling force here - if the moderators get too heavy-handed in their thread killing, they will start to lose customers. If they let all the crap stay on the board and it becomes too annoying to wade through, they will lose customers. It’s up to the owners of the message board as good businessmen to find the right balance, or to appoint moderators who will.

In time, as alternatives to the SDMB come and go, the cream will rise to the top, and the people will wind up staying at the place that works the best for them. Viva la Free Market.

16

I imagine she would have sallow skin if she just died. Sorry for your loss.

17

I am curious as to how you will be governing the board. Will you have a list of “seven words” that cannot be used, or will you make a judgment call on each post? Will you restrict users to certain topics, or will they be confined to discussing Libertarian issues?