The ethics of majoritarianism

You have it backwards. The opposition comes before the imposition. If you and I both want the same thing, or if you want something, and I want something that will end up preventing you from getting what you want, our wills are in opposition. At that point, if we can’t make some sort of compromise, the stronger of us will end up imposing his will on the other. This is inevitable, because there is scarcity in this world, and because what we desire is infinite. Also, there’s something in us that wants to bend others to our will. We like being listened to and respected. We like being told we’re correct. We like convincing others we’re right and wielding power over others.

At the same time, we like surrendering our will to others. People like asking other people what to do, and not taking responsibility for themselves. There’s something really reassuring when you’re faced with a hard decision, being told, “Don’t worry, I’ll handle it.”

That’s why there’s government in the world, at its most basic. It’s to help protect us from each other and ourselves.

Someone called? Although, to be precise, I’ll defend majoritarianism as a compromise between an ethical basis and the imperfect real world.

I start pretty close to your stance, I imagine: Ideally, everybody should have a right to decide how they should be governed. Everybody should have other rights as well, including right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, to borrow a phrase from your side of the Atlantic ocean. In the real world, we pretty soon come to a point where my rights conflict with yours. This is where I choose majoritarianism, tempered with strong protections of the rights of minorities, as the method most likely to ensure these rights to the best extent possible.

The Golden Rule, extended version: Imagine that you’ll be born tomorrow, and that you’ve no control of whether you’ll belong to the majority or a minority. Then go create protections for the rights of minorities.

Some others have mentioned a constitution as a mechanism for protecting minority rights. A consitution doesn’t in itself protect those rights – one of the most memorable lessons from the history of my own constitution is how it originally contained a vile attempt at ethnic cleansing, and how a principled minority fought to change the majority opinion until that paragraph was finally removed.

This is a difficult one. In principle, the people who are most affected by a desicion should have the most say about it. Except for when they shouldn’t. I’ll have to think more on this one. Thanks for asking difficult questions!

Nope. I’ll echo my fellow majoritarians here: I don’t have much trust in the wisdom of the majority. Case in point: Look at the people the majority have elected to lead my country. Or yours.

Because Peter needs to be able to say: “Sorry, a dollar isn’t enough. If you don’t give me two, Paul’s children will starve.”

My instinctive answer is: They shouldn’t. Or at least, their rights should be pretty limited.

To take one example: Thanks to luck and Slartibarfast, there’s a lot of oil under the Norwegian Ocean. I can argue that people living in Norway should have a right to set limits on oil drilling here to the extent that it impacts the local environment, but I can’t see that Norway’s population has a greater right to enjoy the wealth from that oil than others on this planet.

Not really. That was just a colourful image to get the point across that no two people agree on everything.

Simpler? Yes. Practical? Possibly, but I think not. I’ll get back with examples when I’m sober.

Often, but I consider rights themselves to be an unnecessary entity.

That is a problem with majoritarianism, yes. Unfortunately, all the other systems have bigger problems.

Nothing entitles them, so to speak, but there’s no other practical way to run things. Also note that, as SentientMeat pointed out, Smith, Jones and Brown don’t decide that Anderson must move to Somalia but rather offers him a choice: abide by the majority’s will or move to Somalia. It’s an unattractive choice, certainly, but I can’t think of a system that wouldn’t force other choices, just as unattractive.

Liberal said:

I think you’d usually find ethical arguments centred around universal suffrage and democracy rather than majoritarianism.

I guess I’m just paraphrasing better posts above when I say it is a good violence substitute. All things being equal, we can guess that if it came down to brass tacks the majority (or their leader) could force it’s will, so let’s just bypass the fighting. It can break down if the majority decides to use force regardless - such as forcible deportation of a specific coherent minority to Somalia.

Because Liberal the real world isn’t that simple. What if A and B own adjacent pieces of property? A wants to build a pig farm on his property. B doesn’t want the smell of pig manure permeating his property. Does A get to impose his will on B (“I can build whatever business I want on my property”) or does B get to impose his will on A (“The smell from your property is not allowed to trespass onto my property.”)

Liberal, you often simply ignore problems like this or declare that problems like this won’t exist. But in the real world, they do and cannot be ignored.

I’m back, I’m sober, so here are the examples. In a fit of drunken rage, Anderson kills Johnson. What to do with Anderson? Smith and Jones want to execute him, Brown wants him to get treatment for his alcoholism and therapy to get over his violent tendencies. Both sides simply cannot get their way, so who gets to decide what happens to Anderson?

Smith, Jones, Brown, Anderson and Johnson live along a river. One day, Smith (who lives the furthest upstream) decides to dam off his section of the river. This pisses off Jones, Brown, Anderson and Johnson who want water to drink and fish to eat. Who decides if Smith gets to mess up the lives of the other four?

The simplest answer is that the majority gets to decide. If anyone tries to let anyone but the majority decide, the majority can overrule that decision by force anyway.

With respect to force or violence, it cannot be an ethical justification for majoritarianism for the reasons I’ve stated.

But that aside, speaking purely in “practical” terms, violence can be practiced by even a tiny minority, which can overwhelm the majority. Force is irrelevant since any political philosophy or form of government can make force a part of its implementation. Majoritarianism uses force, libertarianism uses force, totalitarianism uses force — only pacifism eschews force, and no one is taking its side.

As to the majority deciding things, like in the river example, what is there in majoritarianism to stop Smith from recruiting two of the other men, maybe by bribes or, if you insist, force, and thereby forming a majority, which determines that the river should be turned into sludge? Majoritarianism will have failed to protect the river. And nevermind what happens if there is a tie…

Finally, this:

Ignore it? I wrote a short story about it — Sarah’s Gold, about a pig farmer and his family, which you can read from my profile’s homepage.

But you have not answered your own question. The majoritarian world is chock full of homes that border pig farms, landfills, and even toxic waste dumps. This thread is about them. Why is the majority in fact ignoring the problems that you merely claim I’ve ignored?

Definitely not, but it does point to majoritarianism being the only practical system, since we’ll end up there anyway.

Nothing, since it is now the majority’s will. The only way to make sure the “right” thing happens every time is to be an enlightened despot, and definitions of “right” and “enlightened” vary widely.

Certainly. Majoritarianism’s aim is not to protect the river but to carry out the will of the majority. If that will is stupid… well, them’s the breaks. I’m not saying majoritarianism is perfect, barely that it is good, just that it is the best system I know of.

That it is why it is my pledge, if elected, to grant equal rights to all Navy SEALS. :wink:

Right. It’s also why you would not normally hear majoritianism defended in practical terms without addressing the protection of individual rights. Just like you wouldn’t ignore all majority needs in practical libertarianism (e.g. a common defence of national borders). I don’t say this to compare the ideologies - merely to note that “pure” varieties rarely make it to the constitution.

That’s the main part of what you’re saying that I disagree with, and I believe that there are sufficient counterexamples of totalitarian or oligarchical civilizations to destroy the premise altogether. Majoritarianism is not at all any ultimate goal toward which all things are headed — the majority may easily be subjugated to the will of a few renegades or one tyrant for that matter.

Totally correct. Proponents of majoritianism would do well not to assume some social evolution that has a goal of greatest aggregate happiness. Societies manage all sorts of temporary equilibriums.

I didn’t mean to imply that majoritarianism is a goal of any sort, just that human civilizations tend to gravitate towards majoritarianism. I believe history bears this out.

Also, when the majority is subjugated, it is always through a system that neither you nor I support. Therefore, given that we have to have a system at all, that system tends to become majoritarianism.

On a re-read, this doesn’t make sense. Allow me to rephrase.

When the majority is subjugated, it is always through a system that neither you nor I support. Therefore, I think we can agree that to both of us, majoritarianism is preferrable to any alternative.

Aztecs: absolute ruler. Babylonians: monarchy. Egyptians: pharaoh. Mayans: totalitarian ruler. Romans: emperor. Chinese: emperor. Japanese: emperor. Minoans: monarchy. Hittites: kingdom. Mycenaeans: kingdom. Israel: kingdom. Judah: kingdom. Persia: supreme leader (rahbar). Various and sundry Arabian and African civilizations: kingdoms and totalitarian leaders. […fast forward…] Nazi Germany: facsist. Union of Soviet Socialist Republics: totalitarian. People’s Republic of China: totalitarian. Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, People’s Republic of Korea: totalitarian. Sudan: despotic. And on and on. Even one counterexample is sufficient to destroy a generalized premise, but with this many, if you do not change your mind, then we are at the end of our debate.

But I don’t even support majoritarianism. I think it is tyrannical.

No. We can not. Do you seriously expect me to support a political theory that has neither any ethical nor practical justification?

Once again: I didn’t say that all societies are based on majoritarianism, just that human civilization tends to gravitate towards majoritarianism. Count the number of majoritarianist societies five thousand years ago, and then count them today. Humanity moves towards majoritarianism.

Ethical justification: Majoritarianism is the system with the best chance to make the maximum amount of people maximally happy, since it follows the will of the maximum amount of people.

Practical justification: Any system that does not follow the will of the majority is inherently unstable as a majority of people is going to be displeased with it.

I reckon you’re talking about European style societies, because if you mean Asian-Indian style societies, then you are equating majoritarianism and cronyism. European population (with the exception of Muslim Albania) is declining. From 728 million in 2000, it is expected to fall to 556 million in fifty years. Meanwhile, China’s population already comprises a significant chunk of the whole earth’s, and theocratic populations are the next fastest increasing. Even Mexico is a one-party state, with the National Revolutionary Party holding power for the last 50 years. And tenuous majoritarian systems, like Russia or Chile, could fall before I hit submit. Rome was a republic for a while, and reverted. America (and its hegemonic influence) is too young to consider it the end of the historical road. It would be like capturing a random day from the stock market, and projecting a trend. Your position on this particular matter is honestly so full of holes, that I simply cannot understand why you continue to hold it. I would have changed my mind long ago.

I disagree. It follows a compromise of the will. Within the majority, there might be strong disagreement about what flavor ice-cream people should eat: 33% might say chocolate, 33% strawberry, and 33% vanilla. It might end up requiring everyone to eat Neapolitan so that people have to buy three times as much to get what they want. To achieve the maximum amount of happiness for the maximum amount of people, you must allow every person to pursue his own happiness in his own way so long as he does not abridge the right of others to do the same.

But how is that practical for the minority? We’ve already been over this. By imposing its will, the majority is practicing tyranny. That is no more practical than totalitarianism.

I thought you said you didn’t want this to be a Libertarianism versus Majoritarianism thread?

That’s right, but I allowed for comparisons of the two for clarity. In this case, it clarifies what I mean by maximal benifit for the maximal number — i.e., 100% getting the most they possibly can, as opposed to merely a majority.

This excerpt from “Why There Will Be No Revolution in the U.S.,” by Michael Lind, in the New Left Review, 2/1/99, might be of interest to you, Liberal. From http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=1013: