The "Far Left" is already being demonized

(Yea, these are completely neutral sources that my right wing family would consider fair and not left leaning at all. Even I think they are left leaning. Doesn’t mean they are wrong – just not a source I can use to convince the other side you are right.)
++++++++++++++++++

I started to read the multitude of articles you provided, but took a break to make a reply. I will try to keep this to three concise points, but my track record is not impressive.

First I have many friends and family in law enforcement, and as a tween and teen I would spend the summer with one of them where he lived with his wife in a community about 80 miles away, strong textlocated on property owned by his agency where everyone who worked for the agency in this area lived. Turnover was slow and I got to know most of the guys, their wives and some kids who were much younger than I was. I learned how to drive a vehicle there, shoot there, make simple automotive repairs there, and went on my first dove hunt there.

A man I ate a hundred meals with, whose patio cover I helped build, and who taught me quite a few things over years was senselessly shot and killed in the line during a routine traffic stop decades ago. It is still a very bitter pill which I can taste to this day when the topic comes up. (This man who was shot was not my relative; he was his next door neighbor.) I did ride-a-longs and even had a hand in stakeouts (of sorts) even though me and his wife’s nephew didn’t know until years later why we got up in the middle of the night to go have microwave burritos and crème sodas at a truck stop. (It was to be sure a drug shipment they were tracking was not unloaded somewhere they did not expect.) This is a dangerous job.

Much later I helped this relative’s C.O. build his cabin and dated his daughter for a few years. We spent every weekend together at that vacation home for years on end (during the nice part of the year). He actually gifted me his own service revolver one Christmas, which he bought from the department when they went to automatics. He described the job as endless paperwork and never ending boredom punctuated by occasional moments of absolute panic. I got to hang out with the retirees and a few undercover guys through this man.

A cute little brunette I used have lunch with in college married a guy who became a cop and he made an arrest which pissed off the wrong people and their whole family had to move away and have false identities until the leaders of the group were arrested and the threat was gone. Partners were killed and the husband was shot but recovered although the details of all this was a secret and I don’t know them beyond this. Again, dangerous work.

My point is that I know enough cops to know they are not all alike, but certain traits are universal. Compliance is a major concern for all of them. I have had law enforcement draw down on me twice and compliance is why I am above dirt currently. Comply with lawful commands and instructions (even suggestions – they don’t carry those side arms for balance).

This is not one of the points, but what happened to George Floyd – when I watch that footage with even hard core right wing Trump supporters, they like myself, want those cops kneeling on him to do life with no special protections. Those fuckers deserve whatever hell their futures hold and I give them no pity however long they served or whatever good they may have done separate from that event. That incident, even without any other evidence proves something needs to be done. That is just a freebie because I assumed we were starting in the same place – but wanted to go back and make sure you know I take this seriously. Very seriously.

Point two; at one time I dated a much older woman who was involved in the civil rights movement and knew some of the leaders personally. She was involved in events similar to the one in the movie Mississippi Burning where they registered black voters (in southern Illinois and western Kentucky). She marched and set up medical tents for protests and marches and treated as many cops as she did protesters (by her accounts). I had occasion to visit with her recently because her husband performed some medical procedures for me. She was disdainful toward BLM, and complained about how back in the day, many broken heads were endured by people who were nothing but respectful and lawful in every particular while wearing coats and ties or dresses and heels.

She was very clear that they made a point of showing as much deference to the police and to the cities, counties, and states as was possible and the power of their protest was that it was CIVIL disobedience. They said with their words and with their actions: “We believe you deserve respect and dignity, and we believe you should show us the same.” Agitators were not tolerated; they were asked to leave or denounced in no uncertain terms. She very reasonably stated that you can hardly expect the opposition to give you respect when you do not respect them. She was unmoved by my insistence the looting and rioters were not parts of BLM. This long time liberal firebrand sounded just like my Trump supporting friends and family: Throw them out, insist they leave, or call off the protest. DO NOT LET the lawless co-opt your movement.

Knowing her to have been a bit of a hippy back when I was pretty far right and as likely to have been a Trump supporter (if there had been such a thing) as not back then, I was shocked she was not more supportive. Upon reflection, it is hard to insist others have a perfect moral stance when you are being hostile to them. Even if you just appear to be acting hostile toward them. If SHE got her back up over this, imagine how the genuine right felt about those protests.

Last point, I come from the place where Sheriff Joe and his tent city were famous not long ago. Recently I got to vote for his replacement for the second time. But here is the thing, we replaced Arpaio and things are getting better. We didn’t disband the department; we got a real leader in there and started reforms that are making a difference. I am sure there are still problems and that some racial profiling still goes on. But I am also sure that it is less than it was and progress is being made.

Summary. Defunding the police and disbanding the police sounds like this to me:

We are in a leaky wooden boat in the middle of the ocean. It sucks, it leaks, it is hard to steer and it is carrying slaves. So. . .
Let’s burn it to cinders and build a new better boat!! All while we are floating in the middle of the ocean.

However shitty the boat may be, you have to stay on board until you get to port and THEN you overhaul it, or replace it do whatever. Here is my question, who will provide security while your police force is in the shop being rebuilt?

You want to reform the police force in any city you need to start at the right place; the top, and the bottom. You start with personal accountability, you put in someone at the top who knows what to do and has the power to let heads roll. Then you go to watch commanders and sergeants and let them know they will be demoted if incidences continue to happen on their watch. They are accountable for their people; if they want someone off their watch show us why.

Changing people’s beliefs is slow, difficult work. Changing behaviors can be done and can be done much faster. Sure, psych tests and as much as can be done to hire the right people in the first place. But until all of your cops are perfectly tolerant – insist upon perfect actions and other cops who witness and don’t report get punished too. If the problem is institutional, change the institution. It will not eliminate racism, but the actions associated with racism will cease to be accepted and therefore – cease to be displayed (to a large degree).

If you doubt that, read NUDGE by Richard H. Thaler (about choice architecture) and perhaps Duncan Watts; EVERYTHING IS OBVIOUS (once you know the answer) about brain function, decisions, and common sense.

He did. Loudly and clearly. In fact no Democratic leaders are in favor of abolishing the police. "Defunding them, yes, if by defunding you mean cut some fat out of their budgets. AOC said that, wanted to cut some small % out of NYPD budget. And AOC is pretty damn far left.

But the GOP and the Kremlin worked really hard to give folks the idea that Democrats wanted to abolish the police. We dont. There are some far lefties that do, but they have no real voice in the party.

How are we appealing to trump voters? I am confused.

Umm, he predicted a Biden win, and Biden won. He also said a Biden landslide was unlikely. He said there was a decent chance of retaking the senate, and it is still barely possible.

What does “band crused hopes” mean?

Mind you, I am totally with you on “Defund the Police” (which leadership has disavowed) , I prefer the ACLUs “Divest and Reinvest”. Defund the police is a really fucking stupid slogan.

Medicare for all, as in Sanders crazy socialized medicine plan, is really fucking stupid, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Medicare.

It is quite possible to have UHC and not back that crazy stupid plan, which goes further than any other nations. In fact it is more than possible, afaik every single other nations UHC plan is more moderate than Sanders.

I like UHC, I want UHC. But it isnt Sander’s stupid plan or nothing. We can do Canadian healthcare or NHS for example, and get a plan that works better- and has some possibility of passing Congress. Which Sanders Plan would never, ever do. Not even if the Dems won a supermajority in both houses.

Here, this is one simple and reasonable argument.
I do not believe anyone is insisting the left wing have no seat at the table. What I believe is being said is that: After joining with many moderate Republicans and Independents, turning your/our (Biden turning his) back on them to embrace a very progressive agenda seems not only tone deaf, but unlikely to be successful as well as the same bullshit we all hate about the right.

Biden campaigned on being an AMERICAN president (as opposed to a Democratic puppet). Not returning to the far left not only makes the most sense – it makes Biden truthful! Which should be a welcome contrast from his predecessor.

bump is just stating the obvious here. Biden should try to find agreement with the right (the moderate right) and not retreat back to exactly what the far right fears. This is just common sense and any far left who can’t see that are in a blue fog as dense as the red fog Trump governed from.

Take the first steps and just maybe we can get to those worthwhile progressive objectives – after many, many steps closer to the middle.

No, they didnt.
The Guardian: The alternative is not more money for police training programs, hardware or oversight. It is to dramatically shrink their function. We must demand that local politicians develop non-police solutions to the problems poor people face. We must invest in housing, employment and healthcare in ways that directly target the problems of public safety. Instead of criminalizing homelessness, we need publicly financed supportive housing; instead of gang units, we need community-based anti-violence programs, trauma services and jobs for young people; instead of school police we need more counselors, after-school programs, and restorative justice programs.

Ie, cut the fat out, and invest in the community.

The Atlantic- was a guest Op-ed piece by someone who hates the police. You can always find someone like that, and he isnt a Dem leader. He is a writer that specializes in writing pieces to stir things up. Of course you can find a guy that say he wants to really abolish the police- but he has no power, no authority and isnt in any sort of political position. He doesnt even claim to be a Democrat. So, exactly how does that "That cost Democrats votes. "? How is Joe Biden- or even The Squad- responsible for one mans opinion?

and so forth.

By abandoning calls for police reform because it upsets people who bought into that GOP and Russian propaganda you mentioned:

Agreed

No one is abandoning calls for real Police reform. Police reform, cutting out the fat, etc are good things, things that the Dems generally want.

What they are trying to stay away from is the idiotic "defund the police’ slogan and a few crazies that actually want to abolish the police. And that is a good thing.

They DO have a voice in this thread. Look above at the seven articles I have not yet read which insist reform is NOT ENOUGH!

Sorry severe typo there That sentence if I am remembering correctly was meant to say Nate Silver and his band of crushed hope wing men (and women). I am still pissed at 538 and all the lost sleep I have suffered as a result of trusting him. But what really crushed my hopes was when I assured an old friend Silver had corrected for his 2016 errors and was going to be spot on. I was disappointed on Tuesday evening, plus I looked like an idiot for buying into those numbers again.

The Democrats went into an all-hands-on-deck push to beat Trump. The media helped. Twitter and Facebook helped. Democratic groups outspent Republican groups 2-1. Poor Michael Bloomberg spent $500 million in an early failure nomination run, then spent tens of millions to win Florida, including spending $23 million to pay the debts of ex-felons so they could vote. Trump won Florida easily.

But with all that effort, and the highest voter turnout in History, they barely got Trump and lost ground to the Republicans in the House and in state houses. The problem is that it turned out the Republicans were just about as worked up and also came out in record numbers.

Lots of good data here:

There is a fundamental contradiction between the left’s claim that Trump is a racist and that the party is a white nationalist prty, and the reality that Trump lost support of white men but gained support from all minorities, including 33% of the overall Hispanic vote. Also, the party of white men just elected 11 new female representatives to the House.

And we can debate whether progressives hurt Democrats overall, but they sure as hell hurt them in Florida. There are 102,000 new Venezuelan immigrants there who very recently experienced the reality of socialism, and they were completely turned off by the left’s messaging. Add in the 1.2 million Cuban American citizens in Florida, and any talk of socialism or Marxism is toxic.

Similarly, Trump did better in Texas primarily because he picked up Hispanic votes in the border regions. The people who actually live near the border areas are most at risk from drug and human trafficking, are often immigrants who fled lawless countries, and it seems to me that talk of open borders and defunding police lost them. They also have seen their incomes rise under Trump, and would be most likely to lose their jobs to illegal aliens.

Trump spent his entire presidency mired in the low 40’s in approval. He should not have come close to re-election. The reason he got close is because extremists on the left caused an additional 4-5% of people to swing to Republicans despite their dislike for Trump himself.

If you had read the articles, you would have seen that while they claim “reform is not enough” none of them call for law enforcement to be abolished and the key to the city to be handed over to criminals. Maybe reading them rather than taking pride in not having done so might help.

:roll_eyes:

The problem is not always what she says or what she means. The problem is that when literally a thousand people who go to certain churches (that I used to see before February or March) see her on FOX News, without hearing what she says they become determined to not let her take their religious freedom and second amendment from them while taxing them left, right, and center to pay for partial birth abortions, educations for illegal (not immigrants) aliens, Socialized healthcare, and especially so there kids have to use the same restrooms as transvestites

It turns out some people on the right can be a tad reactionary and FOX News loves to use that in the evenings to goose ratings and make her into a symbol of diminished values. (They probably don’t know they are thinking it, but they are: If she would just marry a nice Christian man she could stay home and raise babies as God intended.) She is perceived in a certain way.

That IS what it means to people on the right, even my old hippy girlfriend now (Some people do get more conservative as they age. Not me though, I started off conservative and have been become progressive by the moment.)

It sounds to me like the problem is with the people who uncritically swallow this sort of obvious propaganda (my own parents included), not AOC.

There’s more detailed and comprehensive exit poll data here:

yeah, we can debate this all night long if you want, and there are plenty of threads where that is already happening, You made the point that defund the police is a “far left” talking point and that if what we really want is police reform that’s what we should say and not scare the old folks with our" far left’ rhetoric. I posted those links to show you it’s not a 'far lef’t point. Plenty of mainsteam Democratic pundits say that police reform has not worked in the past and wont work in the future. You can say that defund/abolish the police is a loser plank in the platform but you can no longer say that it’s a 'far left" one.

While I’m sorry that you lost someone close to you, being a police officer in the US is just not all that dangerous. Not only that, of those 95 fatalities in 2017, only half (46) of them were the result of being attacked. The rest of the deaths are mostly the result of traffic accidents. The odds are extremely high that that young black man you pulled over for a busted taillight is simply going home from work, so just chill out. Convenience stores occasionally get robbed, but the clerks don’t put their hands on the shotgun behind the counter everytime someone comes in the front door.

Three months after Floyd died, long after the autopsies, Tucker Carlson had this to say:

It’s striking how little we really know months later about how exactly George Floyd died

Bob Kroll (yes, that’s him in the picture with Trump), the Minneapolis Police Union president:

What is not being told is the violent criminal history of George Floyd. The media will not air this

Cynthia Brehm, head of the Republican party in San Antonio:

I think there is at the very least the ‘possibility’ that this was a filmed public execution of a black man by a white cop, with the purpose of creating racial tensions and driving a wedge in the growing group of anti-deep state sentiment from common people, that have already been psychologically traumatized by COVID-19 fears

Jesse Lee Peterson, conservative Radio and TV host and political commentator

George Floyd was not murdered.

Larry C. Johnson, idiot, fuckstain, and source of Trump’s conspiracy claim that Obama used British intelligence to tap his phones:

Yes, George Floyd killed himself.

While you and yours might want Chauvin to spend life in prison, that’s not nearly as universal amongst the right as you think. Even some of the people who are now on board, didn’t climb on board the train until it became obvious that doing otherwise might be problematic.

…or in simpler words: the “far left” is being demonized. And you are happy to continue to demonize them for the “greater good.” The reality doesn’t matter.

As I said: how about we stop gifting the narrative to the wrong people? Why are you taking their side? If you didn’t know what AOC meant about the police you certainly know now. So why not defend her instead of asking her to…well what is it exactly you want her to do?

So we just give up then?

I’m still not getting it. What is it do you want people like AOC to do in response to people who are literally making stuff up about her? What is the correct response here? Why are you letting the “right” dictate the narrative of the left?