Been following the GunsNSpot subthread in here. I don’t know the guy, but philosophically I think he’s right in terms of how not to become a corpse.
I don’t read him as saying all or even many fights are to the death, but it makes total sense to assume the one you’re about to get into is. The argument is not much different from the concealed carry philosophy: “The only time you know I’m packing is just before you die.” Which is not the same as “I’m a badass mankiller.” It just means all other avenues of escape and avoidance have been explored and now it’s time to dance. And what else can you think of someone who has backed you into that corner than, “This clown is about to kill me.” And since all you know about Fightstarter is that he is Fightstarter, you’d be a fool to think he’s anything less than a psycho who sees you as a form of entertainment. The older and weaker you look, the more it makes sense to believe that.
He doesn’t strike me as a John E. Badass so much as someone who’s had some time and experience to work out how not to become someone’s vicim.
No question that if you seriously believe your life is in danger, or your loved ones life is in danger, and other non-violent solutions are not possible or feasible, then you act accordingly out of self-defense. The scenario as described sounds more like what he remembers out of an old Charles Bronson movie though than any reality. The “fight-starter” had decided to walk away and that was when fantasy-Gus saw his chance to try to kill him with a sucker punch.
He doesn’t strike me as John E. Badass either … just someone with fantasies of being, that’s Mr. Badass to you.
Perhaps. For the sake of brevity I wasn’t going to provide an anecdote, but here goes. I am unfortunately acquainted to a fellow who is a trained fighter–amateur boxer–who lives for picking easy fights. His MO is to antagonize as Spot described, and then back off and leave in a huff. The next time you hear from him is in the parking lot when he taps you on the back of the head and proceeds to mess you up. Really, the only way to avoid an ass-whuppin by this cat is to put him down as soon as the opportunity presents itself, preferably while you have the advantage, preferably quickly and decisively.
Now if you subscribe to the idea that a rabid douchebag knows no honor, it’s wise to neutralize them in the most expedient way possible. Of course, it’s also possible Spot just got mad and sucker punched. I don’t know him or the situation well enough to defend his statements further than that.
So let me play back what you are saying: there is the possibility, however remote, that the bar tough who huffed and puffed and then walked away when you did not take the bait, is a psychopath who serially attacks people later. That possibility justifies attempting to kill a bar tough who huffs and puffs and then walks away when you do not respond as soon as the chance presents itself as the rational action to take.
Honestly I don’t think that this was normative even in the days of the Wild West, except maybe in the movies.
In the world I inhabit (US suburban-rural area on the Eastern Shore of MD) it would seem that someone like that would quickly be arrested and (presuming conviction) be put in jail for several months to several years at a crack for that sort of attack, yet you claim he does this on a regular basis for his own entertainment. How does he avoid being charged with assault and locked up after these attacks?
I have no problem with what you just said here. It is just not what I was trying to say. The average Turks I know, ( not that many ) who seem average to me will & can put so much instant whipass on a fella with no regard for his pain or your life that the idea of average, if you are truly in for a fight, you really need to think about their average and yours might no be the same. Not saying they are more into a drunken brawl like so many here assume it the only place an average guy will ever get into hand to hand fight.
astro & DSeid, The event I described happened in a land far away when I was less than 20 years old, a few beers had been downed but no one there was ‘drunk.’ I am a bit more than 71 years old now so it was a bit ago although not in the cowboy era of the USA
There were other things that made it imperative to me that he had to be put down at that time. Now I could have started a fight at the first insult or touch but he was known to carry a knife and like I said before, my Dad taught me & had himself so definite ideas on when & how to fight. He was a large guy born in Texas, and so am I. This was not the first little red headed Texan with a log on his shoulder that I had encountered.
As I have been trying to say, I feel I am average too and if you are average and for some reason we just had to fight one on one, well, when you open the door to violence, it does no good to complain about what comes through the door.
I find these threads are so full of 'it ain’t never gonna happen like the OP presents and so many come along and make all the claims about who & what and it is uncivilized and … and … that I feel that pointing out that there are some real things to consider before you use a message board to determine what the outcome might likely to be.
Inherent in the OP is, I think, some concept of a ‘fair fight’; one on one (or two on two, something balanced), no weapons or equivalent weapons, etc. The kind of rules necessary for the ring, the movies, or even for your average neighborhood dive.
Spot has a point; anyone who expects those kinds of rules to apply in an alley or parking lot (or a bar worse than any I frequented in the misspent portion of my youth, including those in Mexico, but I digress) HAS already lost. One always makes sure to be closest to the pool table or the back door when the fight breaks out. (Me, I never lost a fight; I could teleport to the back door.)
I’m not some raging militarist, but I suspect the Seals know how to fight dirty.
For myself, I know there may be a situation in which I must fight or die. If it comes to that, ever, I’m pretty sure I’m going to die.
However, I know that that’s not like meteor strike, where you can’t avoid it. There’s a whole goddamned lot I can do to avoid it, such as learning how to talk my way out of trouble, surrounding myself with nonviolent people, not going to bars with a rowdy reputation, etc.
I also know that some of the measures I could use to prevent my death in that extremity, such as learning martial arts, have a chance of increasing my odds of finding myself in that extremity, simply by surrounding myself with more people who are interested in learning violent self-defense.
Finally, I think that the highly effective conflict-avoidance skills I describe above are so effective that my chances of finding myself in a fight-or-die scenario are miniscule. They are so low that it’s not worth dedicating significant time or energy to increasing my odds in the fight-or-die scenario. I’d rather do other things with my time.
Not one that would have gotten me to 71+ but starting today I would not bet on it the way you are for the next 20-30 years or so. But that is just me, I probably won’t be here anymore to see how it turns out.
IMO, the time it takes to properly carry a weapon legally and enough time & effort, which is fun to me, to keep up with the skill and the thinking about the legal and ethical parts is less time & effort on a weekly basis than what I go through in the bath room each week.
Yeah, that’s just you. It’s served me remarkably well so far, and it’s the same plan as nearly every other person in my social circle, and due to the very low rates of stranger-attack murder, it’s working well for all of us. Believe me, I don’t envy you the course you’ve chosen the tiniest bit.
It does logically follow; after all, you’re beating someone with your fists, table legs, bar mugs, etc… it does make sense that this is a de-facto fight to incapacitation, if not death.
Now most don’t end up that way, but the mentality of assuming the fight you’re getting into will end up that way, is likely the best way of surviving said fight. It’s kind of like the “don’t bring a knife to a gunfight” saw; if you’re fighting to incapacitate and/or kill, you’re much more likely to fuck the other guy up first, if he’s just thinking he’ll punch you a little and you’ll go home a little bloody.
If you ever see fights on YouTube, the average guy gets his ass kicked when going up against a guy who knows how to connect.
I’m pretty confident that I could take on a SEAL, just as long as you shoot him first. . .
Looks up from iPhone and checks the surroundings. Yup, still in the Far East. First came almost 35 years ago, and have lived here for more than 25.
The average guy here would last even less than your average tough guy on the Internet.
On a slightly more serious comment, I knew a pro boxer. Just looking at him, you would never know that picking a fight with him wouldn’t be the brightest idea.
I don’t think anyone is reading my original opinion on this scenario upthread just reactions to it at this point. Here it is (underlines added)
Which agitated the SEAL fanboys into convulsions of rage. In looking at theSeal training courseschedule and the instruction modules hand to hand combat appears to a very minor part of the overall training. In my scenario I am placing them against someone with lots of experience in dirty bar fighting who is in good shape. The main thing a BUDS course graduated Seal would have going for them in a bar fight scenario against an experienced opponent in good shape is not size or massive strength (they are average sized men) or their apparently limited amount of hand to hand combat training, but rather the fact that they are in amazing shape endurance wise. This might count for a lot but I still think the experienced bar fighter in good shape would have an edge overall.
Cue the “You just don’t get it! They’re the Best of the Best of the Best! They’re stone cold KILLAHS!” outrage
Personally I am happy with the security people showing up. I have no interest in getting a broken nose or hand or even breaking someone else’s face over what I assume is probably either a) something stupid, b) a misunderstanding or c) someone had too much to drink and is projecting their personal shit on total strangers.
Here are some of the symptoms for paranoid personality disorder. I am often surprised how similar they are to the symptoms of being “Texan”.
Excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs.
Tendency to bear grudges persistently.
Refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights.
Suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous.
Combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation;
Tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
My Dad was a Texan and the type of guy who would never backdown or allow anyone to put him into a submissive position. My brothers and I were grilled from very early age to never put up with bullies. We were taught if someone was getting picked on to step up, if a fight didn’t have fair odds to step in. All the boys in my family were known to be the type of guys you didn’t want to start problems with however we were all well liked because we never started problems ourselves.
I have been in quite a few fights in my life, I wouldn't get consider myself anywhere close the the average guy for a lot of reasons. I seldom found it neccessary to seriously hurt anyone but I can tell you from experience that the toughest guys I have ever fought were guys like myself who had some experience fighting, Mexican laborers are no one to mess with. Some of these guys are oblivious to pain and just don't get tired.
What I have been seeing and hearing about lately which is very dangerous is this new white boy mentality of ground and pound from watching too many MMA bouts on TV. Someoene may be out cold and they continue to kick in the head or slam someones head into the pavement repeatedly. This is a kill or be killed mentality that you almost have to assume you are facing in a bout with a stranger.
Probably depends on what is defined as “experienced” and “decent shape.”
Is the typical bar tuff who gets labelled as “an experienced bar fighter” (maybe gets into a scuffle or so a week?) who is in “decent shape” (works out regularly with weights and maybe does some manual labor so has some mild level of endurance?)
Likely to be have as much as experience with how to neutralize an unarmed threat hand to hand as someone who has been trained as Navy Seal? Questionable. I don’t have too much personal knowledge of either but my impression is that most experience bar fighters specialize in picking on people who they have a clear size advantage on and bring little fighting skill to the table. Bouncer’s more experience based assessment seems to concur.
As likely to be in a similar physical condition in terms of power, short term endurance, and agility, as Navy Seal? Highly improbable.
As likely to be able to be as methodical and focused in a potentially life-threatening situation as one? Also highly improbable.
Now if you want to define experience as more than what a Seal has and decent shape as better than a Seal’s … then sure. The question is then what fraction of these Scotsmen are truly Scotsmen?
I am no Seal fan-boy but you sure come off as a bar-tuff one. A bar brawler (those that still exist), even an experienced one in decent shape, is still generally just a neighborhood bully who chooses obviously weaker targets to get his rocks off on pushing around and beating up. Seals are no supermen but compared to that? Yeah most would dispatch that easily if they had no choice but to.
astro, DSeid has it right. There aren’t a lot of Navy SEALs, but there are even fewer of these experienced bar fighters in decent shape that have a chance against them. As he mentions most of them are just bullies, or their experience comes from fighting equally unsophisticated opponents. In most fights of this nature the bigger faster man wins quickly, usually against someone stupid and/or drunk enough to get in a fight with them in the first place. It’s been a long time before I’ve had to engage in actual violence, but I was a pre-teen when I last lost a fight. The reason is simple, if you’re smart you can avoid fighting. I won’t go into my brief encounters with morons as an adult, but these things were over in an instant with a crowd laughing at the fool on the floor. Now my personal experiences are not broad, but I’ve witnessed enough informal fights to see that knowledge and physical fitness outweigh brutality every time. If you count lying in wait and hitting someone from behind or unawares as dirty fighting you may have something, but then it takes no real experience or ability to win a fight that way.
I’ll have to give you that. There a lot of ways to have gone after the argument, but pulling out “you conform to this psychological profile” is about the laziest and weakest sauce imaginable.
