The Friday Night Wine Thread

Cafe Society
41

This weekend, the only thing I drank was a Cab. Sauv from Marlborough, NZ. It was good. I made broiled mahimahi, orzo, and kale with sundried tomato, garlic and pine nuts. We drink a lof of Cab Sauv because the wife really likes it, and I just like drinking.

Recently, I had an Oregon Pinot Noir called “Bigfire” that was excellent. 2003 I think, but definitely ready. ($20 – a special occasion)

Also, I just bought half a case of something called Chateau Carsin. It’s a 2000 Bordeaux from 1er Cote de Bordeaux. It’s a winery run by Finns. I think I got it on special for about $12 per bottle. Not big, big flavors, but a very balanced wine for something in that range. Slightly acidic. I got a more recent vintage of the 1er Cote from a different wine maker, and it wasn’t very good, but if you’re a Bordeaux fan, see if you can find something from 1er Cote from 2000. Maybe a good year there.

42

Please do! Great idea.

Another that we tried last week was a 1999 Corison cabernet, Napa. I brought a bottle home too, which stayed uncorked for all of about 30 minutes. Absolutely wonderful, although I can’t say as to what it’s retail price will be since we were paying a tasting room’s inflated price of 50.

If anyone ever tries the Revana from St. Helena, let me know what you think. We love it but the good doctor’s a friend and we might be a tad prejudiced.

43

Further hijack

I was always under the impression that while natural cork subjected the wine to TCA contamination it also allowed the wine to “breathe”. For most wines where aging is not a factor this latter property wouldn’t be a problem. But for long-term agers I was under the impression that this was natural corks true calling since neither synthetic corks or screw caps allow for wine to breathe.

Is this true or has sufficient time passed to allow for an assessment of the two newer technologies?

44

Ehh, I think the jury is still out on that one, which is one reason why natural cork won’t be going away anytime soon.

There is extensive testing and developing being done in the wine industry, but so far, nothing has shown screw caps can preserve a red wine beyond say 10 or 15 years. For the average wine drinker, that’s not really a concern anyway, since most wine is meant to be drunk ‘young’ or within a few years of production/release. For people that cellar/collect those rare wines with real long term potential, natural cork is still the main stopper they’ll find. You can’t argue the fact that it’s worked for hundreds of years.

Still, 10-15 years is a pretty decent stretch, and you’re greatly reducing the chance of TCA. Like I said, there are a few wineries out here putting some high quality, cellar-worthy wines in screw caps. Many winemakers prefer them, but wineries are reluctant to make the switch because there is still that ‘cheap wine’ stigma attached to them by some consumers, and the ‘ritual’ of wine that many consumers aren’t willing to let go of. Some larger wineries (like Bonny Doon) are taking the ‘trailblazer approach’ and hoping the technology catches on with general consumers. Some smaller, high-end wineries are making the switch and not really making much fuss about it, assuming that their loyal, wine-educated consumers are already well aware of the advantages of the packaging and will still buy their libations.

With the screw cap (Stelvin, actually, there are other kinds/brands/etc.) it’s really the liner underneath the cap that the winemaker chooses and the pressure when the cap is applied that determines how much gas permeability the package has. Great improvements have been made in the last couple of years that allow vintners to apply a screw cap in a way that would closely resemble the extraordinarily minute permeability levels of natural cork. But the debate on whether that is even necessary is still going strong. Many believe there is enough oxygen in the wine and bottle to allow sufficient aging, and that much of a wine’s development is anaerobic anyway.

Synthetics are not doing well in studies for aging, again, which is why you’ll generally find them in whites and ‘drink now’ reds. They don’t seem to be as popular with oenophiles or winemakers. They are hard to pull out, some are impossible to get back in, and unlike the screw cap, they still require a tool for opening the bottle.

If you are really interested there are a few studies available online, as well of plenty of articles and debates on various wine websites.

Hogue Cellars Studies (pdf - certainly not the only winery to conduct a study, but as of right now the only one to release their findings to the public.)

Australian Closure Fund paper (pdf - kinda techie, here’s a nice summary)

Stelvin (Right now the big player in screw cap technology and advances.)

May 2004 article on AZ Central

(Sorry for the hijack.) :smack:

45

Equally sorry for the continued hijack,but very informative and thanks for the update and links.

May I ask which winery you work for?

46

Most definately not a hijack. That is the kind of thing this thread is for…sharing information.

47

Heitz Cab, Martha’s Vineyard 1991.

Very nice indulgence.

48

No problem.

And uhh, I’d rather not post the name of my employer here. It’s not a major secret, I don’t think, but I’d rather not have it appear on this board. :wink:
I can tell you it’s a major winery that is currently using screw cap technology on less than 1% of total case production, and has no plans to change packaging, at least not in the immediate or forseeable future, mainly because of consumer bias. (They are involved in lots of testing of new and upcoming packaging and technology however, even if some of it never makes it to the shelf.)
Even if the screw cap is proving better, in business, you can’t argue with “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Their sales are relatively strong.

49

Without naming names is fine. As a consumer I keep reading about TCA taint affecting 5% of all bottles. I have experienced about 6 bottles out of 700 in over four years tainted with TCA though I have no idea how many bottles that I noted as being “slightly off” may have been TCA tainted. I suspect that actual TCA taint is probably an understated problem since most people wouldn’t necessarily recognize it.

To all dopers:

What is your experience with TCA taint?

and to psycat90

What does the industry (and does your employer differ from the “industry” on this topic?) consider to be the incidence of TCA taint?

50

I want to be your friend and share your wine!

51

Done deal. Just let me know when you’re in the Atlanta area. Not that I drink that way all the time, but I bet we could sport-drink some of the good stuff if you like the Bordeaux.

52

I like the Bordeaux - can I bring dessert (or how about the entree)?

Not sure if I will make it to Atlanta, but thanks for the invite!

53

As a consumer I’ve personally come across only 2 bottles of tainted wine in restaurants in the past 5 years or so. At home, probably only 2 or 3 additional bottles, for a total of 5 bottles out of I’d say somewhere around 400 that were finished with natural corks. Those 5 were completely undrinkable. I have to admit I have come across probably a half dozen more bottles that were corked (all at home), but it was fairly faint, so the wine was consumed anyway. (What can I say, waste not, want not.) :wink: Of the additional 200 or so alternative closure bottles (synthetic, screw cap, bag) I’ve had in the last 5 years, none were corked, a couple were oxidized.

As far as occurrence it really depends on who you talk to. Winemakers will say it is as high as 5-10%, the cork industry says 1-2%. My employer I couldn’t really speak for, though I’d guess they have seen evidence that the higher numbers might be a bit more accurate, and I do know that any number higher than zero is considered unacceptable to them, although that is impossible, even according to cork suppliers themselves.

Also, cork is not the only culprit, though it is accepted that it is the major one, to taint a wine with TCA. TCA can be found in other items that would come into contact with a wine; barrels, shippers, pallets, etc. I can recall one winery in this area closing shop, and spending months cleaning house when TCA was found in it.
And different people have different perception levels. What might be horribly tainted to someone else might be perfectly drinkable to me.

Anyway, I’m not an expert on any of this stuff or anything, just have lots of info stuck in my head after working with it (and people that are experts) for the past few years. More than anything I just like to enjoy a nice glass or two of wine… or beer. (And I’m a little bit of a packaging geek, I guess I can’t help it.) I look forward to learning about new wines to try (or avoid) and others’ experiences with them from more Friday Night Wine Threads.

54

No way. If my wife finds out that you offered to keep me from my one household duty (cooking dinner and/or pot de creme), then she’ll have you fed to the wolves. Seriously, I always enjoy hanging out with someone who could teach me a thing or two about food or wine.

Are you in California?

55

I won’t stand between you and your wife and the last thing I want to do is test the taste preferences of the wolves!

I am almost diagonally opposite you in the midst of the Columbia Valley AVA (the desert area of eastern Washington). While I was interested in wines (not any professional involement) before moving here (from Chicago), the interest has thankfully expanded. I live less than a mile from three wineries (Barnard Griffin, Tagaris, and Bookwalter) and I can look out the back of my house and see one additional vineyard and several apple and cherry orchards on the slopes of Badger Mountain. Oh, did I mention that the wine is considerably less expensive here?

I do have several cases of lower tier Bordeaux wines cellared away waiting for their “arrival”. Do you ever venture up my way?

56

I meant a “Sauv Blanc” not a Cab Sauv. from New Zealand.

Also: on corks. You KNOW they’re not going to ever go away in places that produce cork, e.g. SPAIN.

Also: that Bigfire Pinot Noir from Oregon I had last week had a cap on it. 4 of us couldn’t unscrew it. I ended up having to get the “blade” from my corkscrew to hack away where the cap connected to the rest of the foil “sleeve” (whatever it’s called).

After peeling it back some, I tried the cap again and cut my finger on edges I left.

I got the cap off, but still had a hell of a time with it.

57

My experience with TCA contamination has probably been closer to 1% in the bottles I keep at home. I can recall maybe 3 bottles out of 300 or so that I’ve opened in the last few years. Luckily, I’ve never had to return a corked bottle in a restaurant. I don’t get out too much anymore though, so over the last three years, that’s probably all of about five bottles.

I’ve been curious how much TCA is noticeable in different types of wine. The times I’ve noticed it, I was drinking lighter bodied reds…Rioja and Chianti. Do big, full bodied wines not get tainted as much? Or do they just hide it better? What about port? It spends a lot of time with the cork. Has anyone ever had a corked port?

58

They hide it better. TCA can affect all varietals. It has a very low sensory threshold and is supposedly detectable at about 2 parts per trillion in whites and 5 parts per trillion in reds. I’ve personally never had a corked port. Knocks on ummmm, un-TCA contaminated wood.
But you do bring up a good point. There are several grades of natural cork. Most bigger reds, especially those meant to be cellared, are usually finished with the higher or highest grades of cork. That doesn’t mean that those corks are impervious to TCA contamination, but I wonder if they might tend to be affected less.

You know, I’ll be attending the Unified Wine & Grape Symposium again this week. I’ll see if I can get a definite answer to that.

59

We pretty much stay almost exclusively with full bodied California cabs. I’m not positive TCA is what I’m experiencing but I’d say out of each case we drink, maybe an average of one bottle per just isn’t “quite there”, is noticably inferior to the rest of the lot. So yes, 5 to 10% sounds about right. About two or three times a year we’ll come across one that’s absolutely undrinkable and I’ll return it to the store for a replacement, that’d be a tad under 1%.

Re: Sebastiani Cabernets:

While I’d been getting Sebastiani’s 2002 Sonoma (previous comments), they delivered the 2003 Alexander yesterday by mistake. I only bought one to try and it’s almost twice the price at $24 but it was already quite good. Very delicate with less fruit and oak than the other and almost no smoke but completely enjoyable. I’ll probably keep a couple on hand and see how they age.