Quite possibly. Anarchy is like that.
Whatever laws made it illegal to kill Gadhafi probably also made it illegal to overthrow his government. Winning revolutionaries don’t want to consider themselves to be criminals, therefore, that legal system is now defunct. Eventually, there will be a new system of law put in place. It will likely have an effective date, and crimes committed thereafter will likely be prosecuted thereunder.
Who knows? I think/hope there will be some form of stable government installed over there eventually. My preference is for some variant of a secular democracy, but it is really too soon to tell. They could go all Taliban-y, or they could fall to another dictator, or they may just descend into chaos like Somalia. Self-determination can be a double edged sword.
Since they are considering Sharia Law, I suspect things like ex post facto will go out the window.
There is no country in the world that allows murder, and there is no need for a law against it to be on the books. Just as the victors can claim amnesty for killing Gadhafi, so they can claim that whatever laws they think reasonable to have been on the books during the conflict.
See, the reason I asked was that I wondered if said guy could grant said pardon to said gunman.
The U.S. rebels againts England, and becomes a country (officially) in 1776. If it was found out that a man had murdered his wife in 1770, and her bones were discovered buried in his back yard in 1780, should a U.S. court have jurisdiction extending back past it’s own formation date? How far back does it go? 25 years? 1000?
I guess the question is: Does the current government in Libya claim to be a “continuation” of the old one (with all the same governmental infrastructure and laws, honoring treaties the old one signed, etc.), and thus claim jurisdiction over murders committed, or is it an entirely new one with a new consitution and form of government to be decided in the next year or two?
My guess is that the new government is probably going to want to prosecute those crimes that occured just before and during the revolt if it is politically convenient to do so.
I don’t believe NATO, the UN, or the US should try to force the prosecution of these guys by threat of embargo or invasion if the government in Libya chooses not to. I think it would be viewed as outsider interference by the citizens of Libya.
In the US, yes, since the Colonies had their own governments that continued into the formation of the USA. The Libyan government could simply declare Marshal Law to have been in effect. They are in power, so they get to write the rules.
Sure it’s possible. The guys with the guns over there can set up any form of government they like. They’re starting from scratch. They’ll be writing some form of a constitution which will say whatever they want it to say.
I guess that answers the practical aspect of your question. [OP]
The moral answer [if we were playing Lawful Good Paladins in D&D] is “yes, they should prosecute whoever tortured a surrendered prisoner”. But I don’t think they will do that.
You always separate the legality of waging the war, with your conduct during the war. Illegal wars do not permit illegal conduct. That’s assuming this war was illegal, which it was not.
You’re speaking of Libyan domestic law, I assume, and their criminal laws. You’re ignoring vast bodies of law that control conduct during a war - that were not defunct at any point. Which this most definitely was a war; which this execution most definitely occurred during the war - just after a NATO bombing.
Libya can convene a court to try for violations of the laws of war that were always present and controlling during this conflict. They can. I don’t think they will because I don’t think they view this as a crime. That’s why I think it has to be large scale executions for anything to happen from outside Libya (or even should happen).
Unless, of course, you happen to care about little details like due process of law, criminal procedure, jurisdiction, venue, any other rights afforded to a defendant.
Who has the police power? Where should the trial be held? Does the defendant get bond? Will it be heard by a Judge, several Judges, or a Jury? Does the defendant have a right to counsel? If it is a jury trial, how many jurors may the prosecution strike for bias? (note that wearing the functional equivalent of a Gadhafi Sucks T-shirt when appearing for jury duty is probably sufficient evidence to strike). Does the defense get to strike any loyalists in the jury pool?
Attempting to trial a case like this is ridiculous. You’ll wind up with a farce.
Maybe in theory, but definitely not in practice. International law is mostly an excercise in mental masturbation for law students. The so called International Criminal Court has no army, so they have no actual power unless one of the big dogs on the planet…like NATO…decides to enforce something, which ain’t happening here.
Less of a farce than allowing killing to be legal.
I don’t see why the new prosecutors’ regime is required to charge under the law prohibiting revolts if it doesn’t want to. Just because homicides are going to be charged and treated as requiring a trial doesn’t mean that every law of the old regime has to be honored.
That may not bode well. Regardless, if they even gave a directive saying “take him alive if he surrenders,” I’d consider that a good thing.
You think they missed the day in school where we learned not to sodomize people with a bayonet and then shoot them? If you mean they didn’t know that under the recognized rules of war you’re not supposed to brutalize and then execute people after you’ve captured them, I’d say that’s very possible. Which is why you’re supposed to tell people not to do that.
That would be a lot more understandable and it would be a separate issue from not knowing it’s wrong. In the larger picture, though, we’re not just talking about Gaddafi being killed.
I’m not arguing for prosecution yet, personally. I’d like to know what happened first.
The Geneva Conventions have influence. The ICC has influence. All Western, of course, but complying adds legitimacy. If the new Libya starts getting pressure to prosecute/turn over people because we learn that 100’s of executions took place over the country, we can place bets if they will or not.
I’ve already stated the investigations will be “inconclusive” because it’s too politically heated with just killing Gadhaffi. I still stand by that.
There are a whole bunch of guys down in GITMO waving bullshit flags in your general direction. The Geneva Conventions mean whatever the big dogs say they mean. Apparently they mean that the U.S. can hold “enemy combatants” as long as we damn well feel like it… and who the hell is going to make us do otherwise? As for Libya, what country that actually matters gives a damn if they sodomized Gadhafi with a bayonet before shooting him?
It’s not a matter of being ok with it. It’s a question of what I would expect to happen to Iraqis who did it, or US soldiers who did it. I wouldn’t want or expect the Iraqis prosecuted. I would want the US soldiers prosecuted, but would expect a scapegoat prosecution while the negligent commanders went unpunished. But the US is my country, and we hold our soldiers to a higher standard.
We have to see how things will turn in the future. This war should be over now. We do have a lot to worry about. This is a tribal nation that the madman ruled with force. I don’t know how things will turn out. Keeping my fingers crossed. But such a directive probably came from the US/NATO, and might have been delivered down the line with a little bit less than sincerity. I don’t know.
I think the examples of right and wrong they’ve seen for 40+ years wouldn’t give them much knowledge of what acceptable behavior is domestically, and they probably didn’t know what international expectations were, and even telling them may not be enough. All these soldiers and officers expected this to happen to them if the tables were turned.
I don’t know exactly where I’d draw the line on my expectations. Others were probably brutally killed also, but on both sides. If it stops now, I’d let it go.
It would have to be much worse than described so far before I’d want to see prosecutions. There are a lot of downsides to prosecution also:
Finally, a system of law is supposed to provide a level of justice that keeps people from individual avenging the wrongs against them. No such law has been in place in Libya for who knows how long, and does not really exist yet. And the rest of the world did little to attempt to acheive such justice. Where is the justice for decades of death and abuse under the rule of a madman for the people of Libya? There are untold numbers of people who have not been served by justice. Requiring it from them under these circumstances does not seem just to me in itself. We should be exerting great efforts now to get Libya to a point where justice is being served by their government. I find that far more important than the prosecution of rebels who killed a ruthless dictator.
I’m sure we can all agree they mean you can’t shoot a captured prisoner in the head w/o a trial. Yes?
So it’s a crime. I know you know that. Now politics decides whether anything comes of it. I agree no one cares about Gadhafi, even with that pesky PR nightmare video. Nothing will come of that. However, they might care if this was systematic and not isolated. If there are 100’s of bodies with shots to the head laying around in piles. You can’t have that and ignore it. Not if you want to be taken seriously (ya know, $ for one). You at least need the appearance of clean hands.
People will be charged with war crimes in this war (the losers). If there was enough summary executions of loyalists by the rebels, a token amount of the rebels could be charged too. It’s the new Libya. That’s the image I’d go for. Rule of law.
Were there trials for the partisans who killed Mussolini? This is a rhetorical question
I get what you’re saying, but some in this thread seem to be under the impression that these were actual soldiers in a regular army. They weren’t. It was a coalition of diverse groups…sorta like the Hell’s Angels teaming up with the Mafia, Joe-Bob’s Militia from Podunk County, and a few thousand civilians with serious weaponry. The whole thing is a powder keg just waiting for a spark to blow up on itself. An attempt to punish whoever offed Gadhafi could be that spark.