I’m nonviolent to the point of being a total pussy, I understand that and I own it. But recent news stories about “My oh my! Gadaffi may have been executed by an angry mob!” and “Folks loyal to Gadaffi were found slaughtered in a hotel!” really fail to resonate with me. I mean, so what? Moamar was a dick, his people revolted and a little sic semper tyrannis came his way. Similarly, we see possible seeds of old regime loyalty also stomped out. Only seems prudent to me.
Ok, yeah, we want a more humane regime to replace the old one, and maybe it’ll happen or maybe not. But really, what’s the big deal? I find it ludicrous to suggest eradicating all hope of the old boss’ cronies returning to power is wrong or somehow invalidates the efforts of the rebels and what is to follow. In fact I see no reason it can’t be cathartic, possibly allowing a more peaceful reconstruction. Sometimes revolutions get pretty vile while the hate burns out (France), but that doesn’t mean it’s not a cleansing fire.
(In The Pit because I think I’m gonna get it for thinking this way.)
The Western Idealists want to see everything be peaceful and orderly, but seriously, that’s not going to happen in the bitter fall of a dictator, anywhere. There will be looting, there will be reprisals. The key is to minimize those things.
I honestly have little issue with the way things have played out. A dead Gaddhafi is a lot easier to deal with than a live Gaddafi on trial, serving as a rallying point for remaining loyalists.
His family complained about how he was treated? Tought fucking shit. How did you treat your nation’s dissidents? You fucking tortured and killed them. Khaddafi wasn’t tortured. He got off lucky compared to what he did to others.
The problem is not ultimate that he was executed. Rather, he was dragged out and murdered by an angry, armed mob. There’s a good reason why many countries prefer to hold trials, even show trials. The trials are not an attempt to uphold law, but rather justice. In doing so, the victor keeps his hands as clean as possible in a bad situation, soothe discontents or those who benefited under the dictator, spread knowledge of his crimes, and demonstrate that the accused not only deserves his fate but made clemency impossible.
Additionally, extra-judicial murder has a way of becoming a bad habit. That slope is slioppery indeed, and more than one idealist crusading for justice has wound up becoming a madman bent on destruciton. Is it inevitable? No, but it is a danger. Libya is also a dangerous case because the rebels are chaotic and could easily turn on each other.
In any case, I’ve seen few if any people really wringing their hands out of concern for Ghaddafi. I have seen many worried about the danger sign of his death.
I do not enjoy watching real world violence. (Schwarzenegger action films, on the other hand…) If brutalizing someone is bad, then it’s still bad when the victim is a tyrant.
I am not surprised that Qadaffi was killed. I am not surprised that the mob acted out their frustrations, and that there is/was an emotional outburst. (This includes the desire to show off/see the corpse for the few days, possibly in spite of Muslim burial traditions.)
I wish that I didn’t have to “feel sorry” (even just a teeny bit) for a Qadaffi. He made his bed, and now he has to sleep in it. Kharma’s a bitch.
But I don’t like watching someone brutalised. If you need him dead, fine. A single bullet to the head. No muss, no fuss. But the sodomisation, kicks to the face, hair pulling, etc, seems all… unnecessary? … to me.
No, as evil overlords go you seem to have realized what he didn’t: put that single bullet in your own head before other folks start in with the kicks and the sodomy.
I dunno, as jon Stewart pointed out the other day, this is two in a row found hiding in a hole in the ground.
But now that I think about it, Hitler was in a bunker, which is just a larger and more well equipped hole in the ground. Saddam had his little dug out cave, Gaddafi was reduced to a drain pipe. Maybe Bashir will be found hiding in his own grave.
Inigo,
I can see why you think that. Myself, I usually have difficulty watching people suffering but I didn’t have a problem with this video. A part of me enjoyed it precisely because of who the victim was.
Nevertheless, when you’re replacing a regime such as Gaddafi’s, you shouldn’t ask yourself if you’re the same, better or worse than what you’re replacing, you should ask yourself if you’re as good as you can be. That should be your yardstick, not the people you’re fighting. Torturing him and not giving him a trial were of little use, even if he deserved much worse.
I don’t know who’s been saying that it invalidates the efforts of the rebels but mistakes such as these don’t invalidate the (likely) improvement for Libya.
Eradicating all hope of the old boss’ cronies returning to power is not wrong but perhaps the way in which is was done was needlessly bloody. If it really was the best way to eradicate all hope of a return, then let’s have that knife sodomy.
With what Gaddafi did to the country - particularly over the last few months - capturing and executing him would have certainly been understandable even though it’s the wrong thing to do from the standpoint of justice, establishing a new country, and in making sure none of his friends keep fighting. I’m not troubled by the fact that his body is on display. It’s distasteful but after a 40-year dictatorship, a lot of people aren’t going to believe he’s gone unless they can see it. But this is getting to be too much, and it sullies a great moment for Libya - although I’m not sure how many people in Libya really give a crap. There’s going to be an investigation of this now and whatever else happened to him before they shot him is going to come out.
It sounds like he ran into the drainage pipe after his convoy was bombed, or something along those lines. It’s pretty different from Saddam, who was living in an underground compartment below somebody’s farm.
Agree with most of what has been said in this thread. But can someone explain what difference an “investigation” will make? It’s pretty bloody clear what happened. Who leads this investigation? What do the findings mean in terms of outcomes?
Really, I’ll save everyone the time and the trouble. “Elements of a loosely organized force found the demon that drove them, caught said demon and reacted viscerally.” What else is there to say or be done? Punish someone? Pass legislation? Seriously, what?
I have no idea. I assume they’ll be asking why nobody took control of the situation to stop something like this from happening, whether or not the fighters who were chasing him had any idea what they were supposed to do if they caught him, or if they really just looked the other way and let a mob take him prisoner and abuse and shoot him, and why the story of his death was originally so confused. The transitional council said at one point that he died of neck wounds, perhaps from an airstrike on his convoy, so people will be asking if they knew he’d been executed and were trying to keep it quiet or if things were so chaotic they just didn’t know.
Agreed. Revolution is a messy business. I wonder what the hand-wringers expected to happen. If the rebels start erecting guillotines, then I might start caring.
