Oh, I don’t claim to “square” it with anything…never said I accepted any of the tale as factual…just my subjective take on it. Lots of shit in the Bible that doesn’t mesh up.
For a different perspective on this story, read The Deathbird by Harlan Ellison.
I get that, but I still figured there might be room for something more. I mean, I of course don’t accept comic books as factual, but my take on why Green Lantern can lift a car involves the nifty ring on his finger; it’s not that he got bitten by a radioactive spider or was rocketed here from the doomed planet Krypton, it’s that – as spelled out quite plainly – he wears an odd-looking piece of jewelry that lets him fly around and conjure up boxing gloves and lift the occasional car.
I can’t square any other take with the plain text, and so I don’t – even though it’s fiction.
It appears as though there are more atheists in this forum (at least, this part of the forum) than theists…so there is a good chance I will never get an answer to my major question in this thread.
I’ll do a follow up thread.
My major question (which of necessity has to be answered by theists) is:
If you are looking for the kind of GOD most of you appear to be looking for…a trustworthy, kind, loving, concerned GOD…why would you choose the god of the Bible to be that GOD?
I am not questioning theism here (nor will I be in any of the follow-up threads)…because for me, thinking, guessing, estimating or “believing” there is a GOD…makes as much sense as thinking, guessing, estimating, or “believing” there are no gods. (I understand some theists feel that is absurd and some atheists think it even more absurd. It is strictly my feeling on the matter.)
But for the people who are in the former group…I am trying to understand why you want the god of the Bible to be the GOD you “believe” exists…especially since that god seems to be almost antithetical to the GOD you think or want to exist…as this first illustration seems to indicate.
The shame or guilt is because the evil one can accuse them and make the afraid to come to God, make them feel unworthy of God’s love. God allows them to cover themselves up as we cover up our hearts when we are hurt, God actually gives them better cover then what A&E can come up with on their own, as God will shield our hearts from pain, but eventually those walls around our hearts have to come down, as we are made to connect to each other and God in Love. This process of reversing it is what Jesus came to do, and to restore all thing.
Also only the man acquired the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:22), which is the knowledge of gods and why the man has become like ‘one of us’ (us I believe is God and His sons), and why God states to men ‘you are gods’ in (Ps 82:6, repeated by Jesus Jn 10:34). Also Adam now has to supply his own needs, which is a job a a god. Eve OTOH is put in a position of submission, not that of a god.
Eve was deceived and followed a lesser god - Satan (1 Tim 2:14), she was following Satan’s path. Adam OTOH willfully disobeyed God to be with Eve (Ro 5:12), not following a lesser god but himself, thus achieving godhood and becoming like one of us.
It was not that it was wrong, it just what ‘is’. God set the reality for A & E to live in. It is like a little child who’s parents say don’t go downstairs, and they follow that just because their parents say so, it just is their reality. They have to be tempted somewhere IMHO to learn to disobey.
If Satan didn’t say anything they would have no reason to even think of disobeying God.
They were incurring the cost of their action, and they were put in the position of needed a redeemer. This allows not only for Jesus, but the angels serving men instead of oppressing them when things are restored.
God Loves people so much that He will place them over His sons and angels.
Start at Gen 1:1, go until Rev 22:21, also I would suggest a version which is easier to understand, perhaps the NIV or New King James Bible. Along with prayer, and accepting Jesus as your Lord, having a version which is easier to understand helps a lot IMHO.
Good luck and God Bless.
Frank I chose the Lord God of Israel through Jesus as a 2 step process. Hearing of the Love of Jesus I accepted Jesus into my heart, but He was not my Lord yet, nor did I understand scriptures as I do. Then falling very low, and knowing Jesus is Lord, I surrendered to Him. He started teaching me the scriptures, what they really mean, and hidden in it is the absolute Love that the Father has for us. Before it I did believe that God is cruel, but after He explained it to me, it is his sons that are playing around and making our life hell, and He doesn’t like it, He mediates for us, but must stand back till we seek Him.
The “guilt or shame” is simply the “guilt or shame.”
Adam and Eve did not show any evidence of “guilt or shame” before eating the fruit…they did afterwards.
Obviously something changed as a result of eating the fruit.
If you want to address that, I’d love to hear it.
If you want to do a “promo” for this god…certainly your are free to do so, but it is merely distraction and avoidance…and in no way does it address the issue.
Not so, because at Genesis 3:7, it says: “Then the eyes of BOTH OF THEM were opened.”
The god simply did not address the question of the woman because the story (apparently) was written by ancient Hebrew men…and women were not worth mentioning to them. But the Bible upon which you are relying says “BOTH” were changed.
As I said, the Bible says BOTH were changed.
Bottom line is that Adam and Eve were punished for something that they did NOT know was wrong…according to the story. In fact, it is central to the story that they not know…absolutely essential.
So whatever you are saying here really does not address that fact.
And…ahhh…who was it that allowed “Satan” to be in the garden to talk to and tempt Adam and Eve???
Yes…I understand that according to your theology, they (and all the rest of humanity) needed a redeemer. But why???
They had no way of knowing there was anything wrong with what they did. That is absolutely essential to the story…that they had no way of knowing anything was “wrong” or “evil.” Why punish them…why cause them to need redemption? And why cause all the rest of humanity to need redemption.
If this is the way your god shows love…I’d sure hate to see how he shows hate!
Kinicbird, if you truly want a loving and just GOD…why on earth would you possibly adopt and worship THIS god? The first story about this god show it to be anything but a loving, just god!
So why???
It is no use asking kanicbird to explain his reasoning, because his god whispers in his ear and tells him what the Bible really means.
Jesus certainly seems to be a decent guy…and was someone who knew a great deal about love.
The god of the Bible, on the other hand…the god that Jesus worshipped…is one of the most disgusting gods ever invented by humans.
Don’t get me wrong…I understand why the ancient Hebrews most likely invented him. They were surrounded (as were all tribes) by enemies who had fearsome, brutal, murderous, vengeful, barbaric, demanding, comically tyrannical gods…and they needed a fearsome, brutal, murderous, vengeful, barbaric, demanding, comically tyrannical god for protection.
So they invented one. Or at least, that is my guess.
I fully understand why Jesus would adopt this god as his god. If he didn’t…he would have been stoned to death in a New York minute.
I am asking why YOU would want this fearsome, brutal, murderous, vengeful, barbaric, demanding, comically tyrannical god to be the loving, just GOD you think exists.
That’s something I’ve wondered about recently. If you take the bare essentials of Christianity (“Mere Christianity” as CS Lewis called it), it pretty much is this: Christ came to serve as a sacrifice for our sins, because we all are tainted with Original Sin and are deserving of hell from the moment of birth. The idea of Original Sin comes from the Adam & Eve story, where humankind was cursed because of their misdeed.
But on the other hand, most Christians today don’t believe that the Garden of Eden story was literally, actually true. Without that, no Original Sin, no need for redemption, no substitutionary atonement. How to they resolve this?
God Loves us so much that He is willing to adopt us as His children and place us OVER HIS OWN CHILDREN FOR ETERNITY.
Yes we suffer at the hands of the ‘sons of God’ for a while, but when that is over we will rule with Jesus over all of creation forever.
And BTW the scriptures state that both of their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked, this does not mean they have become gods in itself, a servant follower can be naked and embarrassed. The scriptures clearly state that the man (only) has become like God (Gen 3:22), the entire story of creation about that, men must ‘overcome’ women are saved through childbearing. It all goes back to A&E. The reason for the male centric view is it is men overcoming as required, including Jesus overcoming the grave.
God knows exactly how He wanted the scriptures to appear and has nothing to do with man’s view of the world. What kind of god would that be if men can mess with his word and distort it? In spite of men handling God’s Word, the glory of God shows through that His Word stands eternal.
Not sure of your point.
Whether it was just Adam or both Adam and Eve…makes no difference to what is being discussed here.
And if Adam is a metaphor for mankind (humankind) then your reasoning does not follow.
How do you know that. Maybe there is a GOD…and the GOD despises us. Fact is, if there is a GOD…and the GOD is the god of the Bible…a best guess would be that the god hates us.
If you want to actually discuss things…I’d love to discuss them with you. If you are going to do slogans designed to stay on the good side of your god…I’m not interested.
Adam and Eve used to be one single being, before Eve was taken out of Adam and formed into a separate being, which through marriage recombine back into a single being. From the beginning man and women were made to be different.
God’s plan of salvation is dependent on the differing rolls of men and women and their complementary nature that they need each other to be whole.
In the end, men and women will be linked together back into a single being, spiritually connected with the man conforming to the likeness of Christ, and the woman as the bride of Christ. Once united under Christ they both become one and there is no man or woman anymore.
That is of the devil, who wants to be god and has put that out there to stop people from coming to God by lying about Him. I know this because as I accepted Jesus as Lord, He has taught me about His Love and the distortion of the devil. What we are taught by men is IMHO exactly opposite of what God’s truth is.
So yes there is a god that despises us, if that is your god I’d suggest looking for another, one of Love.
I am God’s child, I am forever more on His good side, I can’t not be.
Okay!
That’s always been key to me, I’ve always felt like this “Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” tale is a collective consciousness deep genetic memory of the evolution of that part of our mind that transitioned into self-awareness, the growing of the conscience, so to speak. The transition from primal instinct to strong dualities and structure and prejudices of a society, or even the brain’s transition from infant mind to “full conciousness and cognition” this story seems to be quite evocative to us as a species that has such a long and social developmental process to adulthood. It seems like this tale is an iteration or a reiteration of the Parent/Child story and unique trope that impresses our history as an intelligent species but it is surrogated and told with a God Being. Just a reflection of parenthood… and imperfect parenthood at that, to people who had no idea about sperm and eggs.
Clearly the tale is Paternal, authored by a commitee of males, so in that alone it is a big Fat Fail at parenthood! Nurturing is genetically “built in” as maternal, surely a few divorced ladies can attest to that. What I would be interested in seeing is the Semitic woman’s version of creation, rather than this bullshit story.
Or perhaps the story of the Garden of Eden is cautionary with the equivalent admonition and final moral to stay simple and innocent (to some this might be considered a retention of ignorance.)
Stay Gold, Ponyboy… Stay Gold