I have recently started building an elements collection. A bit quirky but a fun pursuit of some long-standing interests. I think the collection will build slowly but there is no shortage of online traders who will sell a gram of lanthanum for eighty bucks.
There are some elements that I won’t be able to order and am looking to synthesise. Phosphorus is one of these.
Most of the allotropes are unstable and have a tendency to burst into flames when exposed to air. Even red phosphorus can convert to white with a bit of friction and cause flammability issues. (Ever light a match?) It just isn’t the kind of thing they send through the post.
Additionally, supply tends to be highly regulated due to its use in meth labs.
I only want a small amount – ideally a couple of grams of red and a couple of grams of white that I can seal in a vial.
So I am looking at possible synthesis pathways and suitable source materials. I have not done much research yet but thought I might ask here. These are some considerations so far…
[ul]
[li]I could go all alchemist and make the stuff by boiling down a couple of hundred litres of urine. Some recipes I have looked at include action of bacteria for a few weeks. Others add charcoal and cinnamon(??). I am intrigued. But the whole thing sounds like a bit of a mess.[/li][li]One guy I came across in my research employed a fairly (and unnecessarily) convoluted method of scraping the sides of a thousand matchboxes and washing the scrapings in several litres of acetone. He got about five grams yield. THat much acetone does not sound like fun – especially as the phosphorus does not dissolve in the acetone. The source might be a good one. Is there a suitable solvent that red phosphorus will dissolve in (safely)?[/li][li]There is an OTC brewer’s product that contains 50% phosphoric acid. I am not sure how to separate it from its other constituents. Other phosphates such as those found in fertilisers or baking powder may also be suitable. However, all of the pathways I have come up with on these lead to P[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]5[/sub] which is pretty much a dead end. From there, extremely high temperatures and anaerobic conditions are required for further synthesis – not something I am game to do in my back yard.[/li][/ul]
Let me emphasise that I am only after a couple of grams and I don’t want anyone to post a whole recipe on a message board. That wouldn’t be cool. But I am fishing for ideas.
J.
I was reading a book about Newton’s alchemical career a few months ago, that included some quotes from contemporaries complaining about the smell created by places where urine was boiled to extract phosphorous. And if the smell is bad enough that even the nose of a 17th century London citizen commented on it, it must’ve been pretty terrible.
So I think I’d avoid that route unless you have both a fume hood and an area relatively free of other humans.
I feel sure I remember a thread a while back about making a collection of all the elements, but I can’t find it now. Was that you too, j_sum1? If it was someone else, maybe you could find out who that was. You could trade your excess atoms for others that you need, like stamp collectors do.
Yeah good. I actually keep a supply of phosphorus atoms with me at all times. But they are used to hold my bones together and I don’t feel I can spare them at the moment.
I am going to wait for the chemists to come along and tell me what I have overlooked.
IANAC (I Am Not A Chemist) but jeez… unless you’re willing to go through anaerobic conditions at 400˚C or 1500˚C, I don’t think purification of phosphorus is possible from common naturally-occurring precursors like calcium phosphates. Extraction from P[sub]4[/sub]S[sub]3[/sub] like in matches is probably a much better bet. The formation of phosphoric acid in water is a pretty exothermic reaction as well, so I doubt there are viable alternatives in that direction.
I wish you luck, and be careful working with phosphorus.
So, because you can conceive of a situation where phosphorus might be used for illegal purposed, you advocate censorship of any discussion of the matter. I have two words for you: Prior Restraint. Or, even more succinctly: Puhleeze.
You might have more success looking for an ampoule of Phosphorus in Argon.
If you go to www.periodicvideos.com (which I thoroughly recommend), there’s this video of Dr Max Whitby who sells complete sets of elements of the periodic table.
Eh, given that we’ve recently had a kerfluffle where a thread was closed for talking about specifically legal marijuana, the board certainly seems to be going that way.
But here we’re talking about obtaining an element, one of the basic building blocks of the universe, which seems way, way, way over the line of “perfectly legal.”
Yeah, but no doubt other laws and regulations refer to guns and ammunition. Should discussion on these boards, then, on how to obtain a pistol by legal means be forbidden?
If the mods feel that this discussion presents a risk then so be it. I don’t think we have strayed into that territory yet and I don’t want to.
I didn’t realise that Phosphorus was used as a catalyst: I thought it was a constituent and that changes things slightly. Obviously I ain’t no meth cook.
Periodicvideos is a regular visit for me. I love it and hence the interest.
Buying sets of elements is a bit more of an expensive way to go and I have kind of decided that I want to source my own as I find out more about each element. For sure I will get some samples from element suppliers and Phosphorus may be one of these.
For me it is not just about the ownership. If it was then I could pinch some from the place I work only 25 metres from where I am sitting right now – or alternatively ask politely and be given some. Both of these options are unethical and put my workplace in a compromised position. Not going to do it. I want to learn some things as I build my collection.
So, the question is genuine, the motivation ethical. So, a plea. If you are responding to this thread, please don’t include detail that would encourage illegal activity or put the Dope in a compromising position.
Different country. Different jurisdiction. Same kinds of issues faced and so, yeah, thanks. But just because there are prohibitions and restrictions imposed by the DEA does not mean that I am directly bound by them or that we should quash a discussion about boiling chicken manure.
Tricky proposition for the amateur chemist - P is a reactive and quite toxic element. I can think of one way to try it using available materials, but it’s such a toxic concoction that I’ll refrain from posting it. Not to be a jerk, but the strength and/or character of reducing agents you need to free elemental P from a P compound aren’t suitable for home chemistry.
You might want to check out Theo Gray, see Theodore Gray - Wikipedia. He built a 4-legged periodic table. I think there were a couple of elements he could not get.
I can tell you that phosphorous was originally from a large reservoir of urine. I guess if you google it you can get more details. I assume that, like sodium and potassium, you store it under oil.
Nitrogen is also in meth. Nobody talk about the atmosphere!
Related, I heard an interesting story on NPR’s Marketplace today–apparently most of the world’s supply of easily obtainable phosphorus is in Morocco. Vacation time?
The link indicates that this is a proposed rule from 2000. It does not indicate whether this proposal was implemented or what the current rules are.
While I have only skimmed it, as far as I can tell the proposal itself only recommends that transactions involving phosphorus should be regulated. I do not see where it is illegal to possess phosphorus, or even that it is illegal to make small quantities.
Unless it can be established that it is presently against US law to possess or manufacture small quantities of phosphorus, I don’t see a reason to close this thread.
Here’s his website for the wooden periodic table table:
This is the page for phosphorus:
He’s got several samples of red phosphorus, an ampule of white phosphorus, violet phosphorus, black phosphorus, lotos of matches, and several phosphorus-containing minerals.