Yes they did know they were cousins.
Probably the worst scene in GF III was the “love scene” when the two of were making gnocchi, and calling each “cuz.” They also talk about Sonny.
III is an intolerable mess that should have gone straight-to-video along with Pesci’s crap mafia films. Sofia Coppola make be a good, perhaps even great, director, but she can’t act for dried beans. None of the women are really strong presenses, really, and I think that was a deliberate choice; it’s a “man’s world” in the film where the rights and interests of women are secondary at best; hence Sonny’s overt and everyone else’s tacit dismissal of Connie. I think you have to watch them a couple of times at least to really get the richness of the films. But avoid III, and especially the bastardized Coppola chronological re-cut.
Stranger
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I’m going to speak up for III. Yes it is the “stepchild” of the three, yes it doesn pale horribly incopmarision to I and especially the magnificence of II and Sophia C is intolerable, but once the film gets to Sicily and beigns to settle into the familiar tones and pace of the series, it does become very good indeed, IMO. And Pacino is wonderful through the whole film. Garcia is great. And there are still those fantastic set-pieces which are worthy of the series - especially the scene where Altobelli introduces Vincent to Luchesse (?sp) and Michael’s final scene. It’s not a worthy successor at all, and maybe it’s shouldn’t have ever been made, but with a bit of patience, it does have it’s charms.
Just my 2c
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And Clemenza! Clemneza rocks and has way cool lines in G1. His loss was the one slight tarnish on G2.
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I agree and I tried to qualify my term “imitation”, though clearly not strongly enough. I think the point I was making is that the “mob drama” genre was basically invented by the Godfather movies and it’s Greek tragedy plot and epic style may not work with someone who’s impressions of what a mob drama should be were formed by the likes of Goodfellas and Casino first.
Supposedly (this is from The Godfather Companion and was supposedly gleaned from interviews with Coppola and Puzo at the time as GF2 was never novelized) Pentangeli (who, most people here know but WOOK as a first time viewer may not, was actually supposed to be Clemenza- more on that in a second) had a Sicilian mistress from his “business trips” there with whom he had two children. The children lived under the protection of his brother, the “old school” mob boss. To be a traitor is the absolute worst offense in the ancient Sicilian culture (there are stories about how under French occupation if a man’s daughter was raped he would deny it to the French authorities and deal with it only through his Godfather because to involve the hated French was seen as treacherous, especially if it meant delivering a Sicilian, even a rapist, into their hands). It demands the ultimate retribution. The presence of Pentangeli’s brother meant that if he betrayed Michael, whom he was sworn to protect at all costs and to whom he owed his complete allegiance (for without silence and loyalty a mob family was damned) his brother would kill his children as soon as he got back in Sicily. (This is also one of the reason that the prequel portions of GF2 set up that Clemenza has always been a womanizer [the scene where he trades a dress for sexual favors- which come to think of it may be in the deleted scenes.)
The book also goes into the hostage arrangements at Mafia summits and pow-wows. There was a NYC Sicilian family (we’ll calll them F) known for being so insanely vicious and mean to their enemies that they made a good living as professional hostages. If boss A wants a meeting with boss B on B’s own territory he’d arrange for the F’s to send a member of their family to boss A’s family. If boss B assassinated A, then A’s people would kill the hostage, and the entire F clan would not rest until they’d tortured and killed B, and it didn’t matter how long it took or how many of them it killed, they would get B. (Does anybody remember the name of the family? I think they’re referenced in the movie.)
For WOOK- the role of Pentangeli was written for Clemenza, who as mentioned took over the family after Vito died, Tessio was executed and Michael moved to Vegs. He was also Michael’s godfather as well as somebody he’d known and in a way loved his entire life. (In the GF1 scene when Clemenza is teaching Michael to shoot and telling him about Mafia wars “happen every five or ten years” he mentions how stupid the future Allies were to let Hitler get away with the Sudetanland as they could have stopped him there; in GF2 when Tom is talking to Pentangeli for the last time he mentions how good Pentangeli’s foresight and vision have always been and how long before WW2 Pentangeli was talking about how the next great war was going to be because of Hitler taking the Sudetanland- this is one of the continuities from the script that was left over from when the role was Clemenza’s.) Unfortunately, Richard Castellano, who was paid ore than anybody else (including Brando) for his role in the first film, was a prima donna and demanded a huge sum and star treatments of all kind to reprise the role. Coppola contacted Gazzo (whose role of Pentangeli was to have been a very minor one- just a guest at the party, but Coppola loved the actor] and asked if he could do do a role meant for Clemenza as a just in case. Finally Coppola and Castellano came to terms on money and perks and all seemed ready to go and Castellano was literally on the set in Nevada and about to go to work when he and Coppola got into a huge screaming match over Castellano’s dislike of the script and insistence that his own family members (a brother-in-law, I think) rewrite his dialogue whereupon Coppola basically told Castellano to go screw himself and Gazzo, thinking his role was going to be a small one again, got re-upped to Pentangeli with about three lines added to the script mentioning Clemenza was dead and Pentangeli was the new NYC boss. All of the rest of his role was to have been Clemenza, which would have made it so much better (not that Gazzo was bad- he was great in fact- but Clemenza on the stand would have made you feel Michael’s grief over the betrayal and Clemenza’s sense of betrayal thinking it was Michael who got him garroted).
Also on the subject of 1-2 continuity, Brando was ultimately offered more than $1 million (20 times his salary for GF1) to reprise his role for a 5 minute or less cameo in GF2 [the dinner table scene with Caan and Vigoda {who filled in for Castellano- that role too was to have been Clemenza}]). He refused.
GF2 is very confusing the first time you see it and pretty much everybody has the “WTF? Why did Rosato say ‘Michael Corleone says hello’ if he was working for Roth?” There’s also the “did the Corleones kill the whore or did the senator do that himself?” question and the “Did Fredo know the men were going to try to kill Michael in his bedroom” and other questions. There are threads on SDMB on all of these.
Regarding Appolonia, by GF3 (which was to have starred Winona Ryder as Mary but unfortunately she had a nervous breakdown just before shooting so after a worldwide talent search Coppola wisely chose his daughter in what is probably the most universally and justifiably despised performance in any movie not to have been produced by George Lucas [who did in fact work on the film- Coppola was/is his mentor]) Michael has clearly told Kay about her as she references her when they are in Sicily. It is not clear whether he is telling his children about her for the first time or not when he mentions her after hearing Tony sing Brucia la Terra.
Johnny Fontanne is of course based on Frank Sinatra (the war movie being From Here to Eternity, which he supposedly used mob influence to get and which jumpstarted in his career- in the book there’s also an Ava Gardner character). Moe Greene = Bugsy Siegel, Hyman Roth = Meyer Lansky and several of the other mobsters are based on real people as are some of the crimes (the murder in a family restaurant, the revolving door shooting, even Bugsy/Moe having his eye shot out [though Siegel was killed in Beverly Hills and not on a Vegas massage table]).
One of the deleted scenes makes you hate Woltz as it reveals he’s a pedophile (or ephebophile) with his Shirley Temple like lead star (and with her mother’s full complicity). The horse head in his bed was a real horse head procured from a NJ slaughterhouse (it was then legal to sell horse meat in Jersey; I don’t know if it still is). The actor (John Marley) later played the same role in a hysterical GF parody on SCTV (except he was a TV producer, served TV dinners instead of gourmet eats, and woke up with Mr. Ed’s head in his bed).
PS- One of the deleted scenes from 2 is Michael ordering the death of Fabio, Apollonia’s bodyguard, who has been found living under an alias as the owner of a pizza parlor in upstate NY. The hit itself is also a deleted scene. (I believe this may have been a scene deleted from 1 that was reincorporated into 2 and then cut again, along with the scene of Michael telling Biggs how much he wants to leave the moisture farm and go to the academy.)
During the scene towards the end of GF II when Fredo was in the lounger and Michael was laying down the law Fredo told Michael that he met Johnny Ola in Beverly Hills (I think). Since Johnny Ola was Roth’s guy and actually met with Michael at the party the hitmen could as easily have gotten in via Johnny Ola as anyone else, but I don’t think they came in with Johnny Ola either, since Michael’s men would have pinned them to Johnny. Anyway I don’t think Hagen had anything to do with it. If he did the filmmakers certainly wouldn’t have made it so subtle as to go undetected.
The hit is in The Godfather Saga. I can see why it was left out of the main films - it was a car bomb and the blast was such a fizzle compared to the Apollonia blast that it was hard to imagine the intended victim ending up with anything more than singed eyebrows and a ruined hairdo. It was unconvincing.
Sadly the commentary doesn’t help at all and the book only covers the events of the first godfather movie and the “Vito” section of Godfather II. The Micheal section of Godfather II was written by Puzo for that movie.
Thanks for all the great input, paisanos! I will definitely rent the dvd. But be warned, I may just come back here and have to start talking about it again. 
One more thing, for those who saw both versions (cut and uncut)are there any exceedingly bloody scenes I should be wary of? Old Paint’s head in the bed was the most cringeworthy scene to me (even though we didn’t see much).Is there anything more gruesome than that in the unedited version?
When Sonny gets shot up at the toll booth. Lots of squibs going off and jiggling around.
It’s an interesting backstory, but since it wasn’t in the movie, it didn’t happen. Or, there’s no reason to think it did over any other backstory.
Frankly, I find the idea that Pentangeli’s brother would murder his children a little hard to buy; it doesn’t really fit in with the other characterizations, and does not fit the way the Mafia folks view their children in the movie. It’s also too heavy handed. The scene where his brother steps into the hearing is far, far more powerful if you simply accept that Pentangeli decides not testify purely out of a sense of shock and shame because of his brother’s moral disapproval.
“The Godfather” relies on notions of honor and dishonor to function. The Mafia hoods work under a code of honor, at lest nominally, but the nature of their business keeps causing them to break it. If Pentangeli changes his mind because his family was threatened with death, so what? Anyone would do that. If he changed his mind because his brother disapproved of him, that’s interesting, and goes to one of the movie’s themes.
Gosh, I thought it unambiguously obvious the Corleones killed her.
Agreed. There’s a scene when Tom is talking to the Senator and Al Neri(or is it, Rocco) appears in the doorway, wiping his hands or something. Tom gives him a slighty peeved look and nods him away. I always took that to mean that it was Al who had done the deed and he was hanging around to see the aftermath.
Hmmm, I never thought it was a great movie. It’s a well-executed and entertaing movie that straddles the line between ‘arthouse’ and ‘mainstream’ well. But it wasn’t particularly innovative. Good watching, but nothing to make you gasp.
My reaction to GFII is the same; a mess! It manages to mix up the vatican bank scandal with the 'P3" affair, the death of Pope JPI, and the mafia of John Gotti (Joie Zaza). Too much irrlevant stuff, plus the awful Sofia Coppola, and George hamilton.
I know I’m late to the party, but hammy? Have you ever seen Al Pacino? He is the biggest ham on the planet. This is by far his most subtle role. I wish he would go back to this style and leave the scenery-chewing for the less talented. It GF1 he says more with his eyes than with the dialogue. I particularlly like the scene when he is confronting Carlo. He tells Carlo he knows he set up Sonny. All Carlo has to do is admit it and everything will be alright since he is family. When Carlo confesses look into Pacino’s eyes. They glaze over and he stays very still. At that moment you know he was bluffing. He only suspected Carlo but had no proof. He needed to hear it from Carlo to take it to the next step. Next thing you know, boom foot through the windshield.
Whoa, wasn’t me said the acting was hammy. I was responding to the OP.
For a dramatic movie with lots of characters doing lots of dramatic things, there was remarkable little ham.
The only scene that I remember that even gets close to hamminess is when Sonny chews his knuckles, after he sees Connie’s black eye. Has anyone in real life ever chewed their knuckles?
I concur, Mr. Pacino should go lay down between two pieces of rye. Thing is, I like that about *him *. When everyone in the cast is chewing the scenery it gets tiresome. Maybe, as someone pointed out, I’ve seen so many parodies of these scenes that it’s hard to take them seriously. I’m having a hard time picturing what it was like being among the first to see Brando’s Don Corleone. Obviously it made quite an impact at the time, but to me, today, it’s sort of laughable.
I often have knuckles. It goes good with some ham.
In all serious, in my past angrier days, I used to occasionally bite down my knuckles if I was really angry. I’d punch walls too. Brick ones.
Gee, I was dumb.
Brando had not sunk to the level of self-parody that he’s remembered for today. At the time he was thought of as a once-formidable, star-power actor on a streak of bad movies. His performance as Don Coreleone was considered proof that “he still had it” rather than a lone bright spot in a downhill slide of a career.
Also, Brando was 48 when he made the movie. To play a character that was a generation older than he was was considered quite a risk. Remember, Harrison Ford was 48 when he played Indiana Jones for the third time.
I guess that the phoniest acting that Brando did was the scenes where he makes peace with the other mafia Dons-his blather about Michael “I’m a superstitious man…” was probably his least convincing role. Was he plotting revenge at this time-he surely knew Barzini was the enemy…mayb he was just tired and let Michael handle it. The scene in the cemetary (at the Don’s funeral). Tessio was the traitor-why didn’t he get some low level stooge to communicate with Michael?
Anyway: Fredo-was his fate sealed when he confessed to Michael about Johnny Ola? Fredo was either too stupid or didn’t realize he was on thin ice. Surely Michael had lost any love he had for Fredo-but why kill someboy as harmless as he? Once Moe Green and Hyman Roth were done for, why off poor Fredo? 