The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other)

Back from work. Just a quick jaunt to the northeast & back. Lovely day.

No, we have interphone on all the flavors of aircraft. But it’s pure push-to-talk. There’s no mechanism to make it hot mike, and no voice activated keying either.

Most models have a two-position mike key on the yoke; e.g. up for selected radio, down for interphone. Some models don’t even have that; the yoke key keys whatever is selected, be that a radio or the interphone (or PA :eek: :smack: <insert joke about wanting coffee & BJ>)
Which raises my pet peeve #13: You’re hand-flying and the oaf next to you grabs the yoke & yanks it while trying to key his mike.

Most models have a push-to-talk switch on the comm select panel, which is what I use for 99% of my radio transmissions. But that only keys the selected comm, which is normally radio 1. So to use it for interphone the drill would be: select interphone, key mike, say whatever, reselect comm 1 ASAP so you don’t forget. Repeat each time you want to say something. Not real practical either.

So we shout at each other over the din & our respective ANRs. So 1950s.

The passenger seat in the Robinson R22 has a PTT switch on the floor, like the high-beam switches they used to have in cars. There are two buttons on the cyclic (Radio and Intercom) as well. In Robinsons, with their teetering-T cyclics, the control at the non-flying seat is raised so as not to be too convenient for the passenger to grab.

Wow. I’ve always had a VOX system in my bug smasher. Even when I was a student I had a portable one. It’s mind boggling that a commercial plane doesn’t have one.

Hand mikes and overhead loudspeakers were industry standard until ~1980. Some around then the FAA mandated that all aircraft built after some date (IIRC 1985) had to have hookups for boom mikes. And crews on those aircraft are required to use them, not hand mikes, below 18,000. But there was no retrofit requirement and folks are still flying 727s and early 737s with hand mikes & speakers today.

This mandate for boom mikes is entirely because those mikes are hot to the voice recorder and this way they get a high fidelity recording of our final words. Which they didn’t get in the earlier days from one hot mike built into the ceiling someplace.

are you allowed to bring your own portable VOX? I remember “back in the day” before commercial GPS’s pilots would bring their own handheld GPS’s as backups They weren’t too happy with the inertial systems going over water.

Nope. If the that equipment and installation in that model for that carrier isn’t FAA approved, it’s verboten.

Some airline guys are gadget freaks. Back in the early days of GPS when our aircraft had VOR/DME only some folks would bring a VFR GPS along & play with it. Fun, but not something one could really make useful. And utterly illegal.

I understand it wasn’t legal to rely on it but they were infinitely more accurate than the inertia driven units and those things were always breaking down at the worst of times.

Didn’t the early jets have celestial navigation windows in the tops of the planes. I know military planes had them and maybe I’m mis-remembering but I thought DC-8s and the early 747’s had them. I swear a saw one a couple of years ago on a ramp.

I know 707s had them; I’ve seen and fiddled with more than one. But it wasn’t a window. AFAIK there was almost nothing other than a small divot in the fuselage surface visible from the outside.

From the inside it looked like a 2" threaded drainpipe fitting sticking a couple inches out of the ceiling. It was just off the centerline about abeam where the flight engineer sits. You’d screw a special sextant into the threads, then move a lever that slid a cover out of the way to expose the sextant innards to the outside world. The sextant itself incorporated a periscope that you then extended up into the slipstream a couple inches so it could see out towards the horizon.

A fun joke to play on the next crew was to open the sextant port. During preflight they probably wouldn’t notice the little lever out of place. But at around liftoff speed the noise from the wind blast plus the beginning of pressurization stuffing air out the hole would become communication-defying in the cockpit.

I imagine the early 747s had the same port & sextant. But they were already obsolete, 3rd order backup systems in the mid 1960s when the 707s I was playing with were in use and the 747 was being designed.

I don’t have personal experience with DC-8s, but I expect they were similar.

Just passing this story on because it happens to be at (or rather, just outside of) the airport where I spent my very short time taking flight lessons.

I’ll be interested to hear what happened; sounds like someone or someones were incredibly lucky.

Lets talk icing situations.

We had a fatal accident a month ago in my area. Xenia Oh (I19). The flight was 122 miles long in IFR conditions. The airport is at 950 ft ASL. Temperature would have been about 32F at the time. The cloud deck was 1700 feet ASL. The pilot canceled flight plans after breaking out of the clouds. and flew a downwind approach. The airport sits on a hill on 3 sides. Eye witnesses described a low approach and sudden nose down attitude turning base. As far as I know the plane engine was running upon impact. The pilot would have been around 500 ft AGL entering the pattern which would have made it a steep turn to base/final.

For the purposes of discussion 3 things: would 32F at ground level equal icing conditions in the clouds? Is this easy to see on a plane like a CIRRUS SR22T which I assume has a smooth fiberglass wing? Is there any way to train for icing conditions?

I’m not trying to determine the cause of the accident. If you want to discuss it that’s fine but I’m more interested in discussing icing conditions and small aircraft. The only time I experienced this was in a high wing fabric plane and I could see ice building up on the pitot tube. I wasted no time putting it on the ground for lack of experience and I ran the speed into the yellow in the pattern which I made wider so as to turn shallower.

Not all clouds contain icing even in the danger temp range from around 10F to 35F. But I was always real nervous in a light plane in IMC much below about 40F. I never operated in serious arctic conditions where the temps were reliably below 0F. I would not be too nervous once it got that cold.

I recall one lightplane flight from Las Vegas to Los Angeles in winter. There was layered stratus from about 2000AGL up to well above my cruising altitude of 8000MSL. I went pretty much the whole way in IMC with a careful lookout at the wings. For a few seconds at one point I was building frost and was just formulating my escape plan when it stopped accumulating. Over the next 5 minutes it sublimated away. The other 2-ish hours of IMC flight had no ice. The clouds looked the same the whole time.

Bottom line there: icing is capricious.
Going to your questions:

  1. As we know, in general temps lapse about 2C/3+F per 1000 feet with increasing altitude. But not always, and winter seems to have more exceptions than summer.

For example, freezing rain is caused by snow or ice pellets formed at high altitude then falling into a layer of above-freezing air from, say, 5000 down to 1000 AGL, with colder air & ground below. Falling through the warmer air layer the snow heats just enough to liquefy then falls into freezing air again, supercools, then hits the ground and freezes on impact. Or on the airplane if there’s one stupid enough to be flying there. Hint: we avoid FZRA about as much as we avoid TSRA+; that stuff will kill a jet, much less a Cessna.

It’s pretty common that the base of the clouds is right at that lower freezing level = the base of the warmer air. This is true whether there’s any precipitation or not.

In the accident case it’s plausible the clouds were warmer than 32F if they were as low as you say, and he was only a little ways into them and it was roughly 32F at ground level. No guarantees, but it’s plausible.

You can get pretty evil icing in clouds just above 32F too. That’s the way to get clear (i.e. non-rime) icing. The air & water vapor & any condensed water are all sitting there at, say, 34F. Then you blast through and your wings & fuselage drop the pressure and the stuff in contact with your surfaces freezes in the reduced pressure.

  1. No clue. Might be darn tough on an uber smooth shiny white surface.

3a: How to respond to icing:
Good academics and a good weather briefing can alert the pilot to the conditions where ice is likely and the vital importance of having an escape plan and of avoiding *reported *conditions beyond the airplane’s capability. The problem is ice is capricious and half the country wouldn’t fly at all in winter if they avoided all forecast icing, not just all reported icing. OTOH, if you’re the first lightplane on V123 today since everybody else is smart enough to stay home, you’ll be the one giving that first pirep in severe icing.

The standard remedy to encountered icing is to climb if possible. The goal is to get up to where the temp is below about 10F. Below that temp ice won’t form on the aircraft; any macroscopic water’s already frozen & bounces off instead. As well, climbing may get you to VMC. That’s remedy is often not useful for light planes with low rates of climb and low service ceilings. Knowing the forecast or reported cloud tops in your area is useful info. If they’re high, like they were on my flight to Los Angeles, you know to not waste time trying to climb to VMC. And a look at your OAT vs. altitude available up to your service ceiling will finish the question of whether climbing is likely to help.

Gotcha: The top 500 feet of a cloud before you get up into VMC is the area most likely to have rime ice. Which generally creates the fastest performance degradation of a light plane. So about the time you can see daylight above through the thinning mist & things are looking promising is when Nature drops one more joker on your pile. Maybe you do climb out of it and maybe you suddenly can’t.

Descending works too, but real quickly you get into MEA versus cloud height problems. If you can’t get down to VMC you need to descend in IMC to find a temp above about 35F. Which may not exist above ground level where you are.

Typically the danger temp range is about 12 degrees C = about 6000 feet thick. So knowing whether you’re cruising at the top, middle, or bottom of that range is need to know info before you wander into an ice patch. Likewise whether there’s warm air (or any air) between the cloud bases and the MEA.

Last solution is turn tail & run the other way. Since icing is patchy, you can expect to get back out of it shortly after finishing your 180 turn. The hard part is admitting you’re not getting to the destination today.

3b. How to fly with ice on the aircraft:
They teach us you can’t make any really useful predictions about the consequences of ice on the airframe. Stability is worse, stall speeds are higher, handling & control is degraded, both natural and artificial stall warnings may not function. IOW, you’re a test pilot of a new & really crappy design; Good luck, Chuck.

They also say it doesn’t take much. Typical light frost on a wing leading edge can raise stall speeds & reduce lift by 50% each.

If I had to land a lightplane with a load of ice I’d land no-flap and touchdown not too far below cruise speed with very little flare. No slower than halfway between cruise speed and placard flaps up stall speed. If that’s above gear lowering limit speed I’d drop the gear anyhow. And use no more than 10 degrees of bank inflight.

I’d far rather run off the end of a runway at 50 kts than fall out of an approach from 100 or 1000 feet.

I’ve been meaning to post about this incident at Christmas and get the Dope’s aviation authorities’ take on it: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20151223-0

The gist–small private jet on it’s way to Telluride for Christmas. We had a week-long major snow event and the airport was closed for snow removal. Visibility was good, however. The pilots did not attempt to contact the airport(!). This is a very small airport–one runway, small terminal, no commercial traffic currently. They landed in about 16" of snow with a large and I believe neon yellow plow clearing the runway, which they hit. Amazingly, everyone walked away.

My questions: is it normal not to get clearance to land? What if it had been a Cessna 172 instead of a 60,000 lb. truck? These were professional pilots, BTW, not an owner/operator. How can a pair of pilots miss a truck of that size in any event? The glide path is quite short, but there’s still time to abort. How do they get the plane to a repair facility assuming it can be salvaged? And lastly, a general WTF?

It looks like Telluride is an [del]out-of-control[/del] uncontrolled airport, so there’s no one to get clearance from. They do have UNICOM.

At an uncontrolled airport, arriving pilots start listening when they are well away to hear what’s in the pattern. They announce the name of the airport, their position, and intentions, just like the pilots who are already in the pattern. Just going by your link, with its accompanying photos, it looks like it might not have been a great day for pleasure flying. There may have been no one else in the pattern, so the pilots didn’t bother to call in. Or they did call in and didn’t get a response. They should have seen the snow removal equipment, but they were in a jet and visibility was as low as three miles at the time of the incident. I’d expect the snow plow to be equipped with a radio, so if the pilots broadcast, he should have heard them. The pilots are responsible to know the condition of their destination. There should have been a NOTAM alerting them that the runway was closed, and the pilots should have known about it.

How common is it to put an X on the end of a closed runway? I’ve seen it an a number of the festivals/airports we’ve flown out of, but they were always scheduled events, meaning there was time to bring in an X if they didn’t have one of their own stashed away on site.

Well, it was only closed for long enough to clear it. The closed xs I’ve seen are quite large and trailer mounted. Can’t imagine DIA tows an x out when they’re clearing snow. I realize now that since commercial operations stopped it’s an “uncontrolled” airport, but there’s quite a bit of traffic.

Exactly. The big portable blinking X is for extended closures, like for a day or more. Not for half an hour while snowplowing.

A few other thoughts …

Operating at uncontrolled airports involves a lot of traps. Even besides the lack of FAA ATC such small airports often have pretty half-assed operations departments and there may or may not have been effective NOTAMs put out that the runway was unusable because of deep snow.

We get about a dozen pages of NOTAMs for each flight. The problem is 90% of them are semi-permanent BS. Finding the new changed transient stuff is difficult. And even then the info is a couple hours old when we leave the departure airport. And however many hours older by the time we arrive at the destination.

We have good support at HQ that would alert us to big changes like the airport closing while we’re half way there. Bizjets generally don’t have that.

From 3 miles out it’s pretty well impossible to see a pickup truck on the runway. Hell, it’s hard to spot an RJ sometimes and they’re 50 feet across. Add in crappy visibility and/or blowing snow and it’d be plausible to not see a plow. Or to assume the cloud of blowing snow you see is natural, not the exhaust of a snow blower.

Still this was a pretty severe goof and probably some element of sloppy workmanship was involved somewhere.

As to fixing the airplane: It’ll be partly disassembled and trucked out of there. I bet there’s lots of salvageable parts but I also bet it’s made its last flight.

From the link:

Airplane damage: Damaged beyond repair

LSLGuy, nice post. I’ve read it a couple of times and will read it again.

If it had an automated system they should have added the runway was down to the announcement and monitor the frequency for incoming.

We had an incident at my airport where some kids decided to park on the runway and make out. Well the pilot who landed decided he didn’t need any runway lights so they had no warning. Luckily he saw it in time to avoid hitting them.