I am thinking of learning to fly, but I want to know if i’ll be able to re-coup some of the investment. I don’t have a plan to make flying my “bread-and-butter”, but can I make some of my money back? BTW, I’m in my mid-forties, so I may be a bit long-in-the-tooth to even take this up.
So, to break it down:
Am I too old?
Can i make some money at this eventually (even teaching)?
Are there jobs out there for old farts like me?
A no answer may not keep me from pursuing this, but a yes may make it easier to justify the time and $.
There are a couple of instructors on the board, and they can give you better answers than I can.
My mom was a secretary at Gibbs Flying Service at MYF for many years. She told me that many times she was making more than the instructors, because the weather was too poor for them to fly. When I was learning to fly helicopters (SMO and VNY) my instructor mentioned that he’d made $6,000 the previous year. (Now he owns the company.)
To start with, you’ll need a Commercial Pilot Certificate. You can’t charge on a Private license. You’ll need an Instrument ticket too, if you want to be hired by anyone. You won’t be able to open an air taxi service on a Commercial ticket alone. Last time I read the FARs you could charge to take people on sight-seeing flights within 25 miles from the airport of origination, and you had to land at the same place. To take people places you’d have to operate under Part 135, with it’s more stringent rules and higher expenses. So you might make a few bucks flying sight-seers. You might also get a job flying pipeline/powerline patrols, banner towing, or maybe as a fish spotter. If you want to instruct, you’ll need an Instructors certificate.
So Private certificate, Instrument certificate, Instructor rating… It’s starting to get mildly expensive. All for long hours and short pay. Nevertheless, I’d like to do it just for the satisfaction. But from what I’ve seen, the better way to make money is to own the business and let other poor SOBs make the money for you. Even then, there’s no guarantee you’ll make enough to live on.
You know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a very large fortune.
I’m not an expert, but I have taken my share of flying lessons. The instructors who taught me were just trying to build up their hours so they could be a commercial pilot.
They didn’t make a whole lot of money teaching, and they spent a good bit of money to get where they were.
I don’t think you’re to old at all to learn, but if you’re going to do it, my humble advice is to do it because you enjoy it vs. the thought that it will be a money making proposition or that you can recoup your investment.
Look at it this way: the guys already mentioned that are teaching (only to build hours and make a little money) are typically building those hours to get a slot at a commercial airline. Once at the commercial airline, the pay is horrible, the aircraft is probably a small regional prop, and the schedule is less than ideal. It’s only when you’re at that airline for a long while that you graduate to the big jets and start moving up in salary. I know you said you didn’t want to be one of these guys, but considering that’s where the most money is when it comes to flying (not counting corporate gigs), then you can see how little there is in the small-airfield FBO-type of business.
Flying for someone like you (and me) would be a hobby–lots of money out, zero money in. It’s been a while since I’ve been behind the stick, and I’m considering getting current again, but am having a hard time at the thought of shelling out a grand or so to do that.
You’re going to have a hard time finding a paying gig with just a commercial certificate. They’re out there, but they are few and far between. If you want to get paid, you need your CFI. Depending on where you rent, the instruction rate, the competence of your instructors, and (most importantly) your own dedication and abilities, you are going to spend between 15 and 40 thousand dollars getting your private, instrument, commercial, and CFI. I had one student who passed his private checkride with 42 hours in his logbook. I have another who is nearing 160 hours and still has a long way to go. Most average 50-80 hours on a private. Obviously, the cost depends greatly on the amount of flight training you have to receive, but either way it is significant.
The first year I flight instructed I worked my butt off. I slept at the airport more times that I can count. I worked every holiday except Thanksgiving day and Christmas day. Another instructor and I had competitions to see who could go the most weeks in a row without taking a day off. I worked more, and harder, than I had ever worked in my life. I grossed $12,000 that year, living in one of the most expensive parts of the nation. Flying is not a money-making proposition unless you make a long-term career out of it. That said, it is definitely worth your time and money to pursue, assuming you have the extra scratch and the will to do it. I ask every newly-minted sport pilot and private pilot the same question: was your training what you expected it to be? Invariably, the answer is “You warned me it was going to be a lot of work, but it was way more than I expected. And it was absolutely worth it.”
Some years back I considered going through the process. After totaling up the cost in time and dollars, and looking at the amount of time private pilots I knew spent flying, and the costs of that flight time, I couldn’t justify it for myself. But I do see that the older pilots I know who have retired have time to fly, and are taking advantage of it. There seems to be a fair number of people who have built their own planes as a retirement project also. I’d still like to get helicopter training, even though I’d hesitate to take advantage of it based on my record of flying RC copters (many successful flights, few successful landings).
Just as a nitpick - people often equate “commercial pilot” with “airline pilot”. Instructors aren’t building hours to become commercial pilots- they already are commercial pilots. Commercial pilots can fly for hire/compensation. Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) is the rating that airline pilots have.
I am always amazed how little most ATP pilots make while flying charters or commuters. Given the training and responsibilities you’d think they must start out at $50-60K. You’d be way off. I guess the competition is so high the owners can take a “take it or leave it” attitude (no pun intended).
Thank you all for the info. I’ve been a motorcycle “pilot” for 20+ years, an amateur road-racer for many of those, and an instructor for about 10 years. I’d welcome a new way to move through space and time, so I still want to pursue this.
2 follow-up Q’s:
Am I too old (in my mid-forties)?
I have to use reading glasses now (but my distance sight is still spot-on). Does that matter?
(BTW… I was inspired last week while enjoying a sight-seeing flight in a single engine Canadian de Havilland.)
Too old? Not unless you’re planning on dying this year. My dad is good friends with a CFI. He soloed a guy that was 68 that had just started taking lessons the previous year. He had no reservations about letting him fly by himself either.
Glasses aren’t an issue. You will need to be able to read instruments that are about 3’ in front of your face - so you may or may not corrective lenses while you fly.
I’m not sure on the legality of it, but maybe you can get into some kind of an aerial photography business to help pay for flying. I’m not sure if that requires a commercial license or not.
You said in your OP that you’re thinking of learning how to fly. So, I’m guessing you haven’t started at all yet. Have you tried an introductory lesson or two to see just how much you love it? You may find out it’s quite a bit different than you expect, maybe worse but maybe better.
But realistically, you’ll need another way to pay the bills even if you do go into it professionally (and you’re not too old, except for a few particular occupations). Even mainline airline pilots don’t make much anymore and commonly have moonlighting jobs - aviation in all areas is just too full already of people who simply have to fly, who couldn’t be happy anywhere else, and who will do it for pennies just to do it. But you just might find that you’re one of them. It’s never too late to start to be happy.
What years was your mom there? I was there (regular customer) in the 70’s and early 80’s. If your mom was there, I probably know her, Bert, Buzz and most the others. Small world.
Bert and Buzz. Man, I haven’t heard those names in a while! I don’t remember exactly when my mom was there. I’m thinking… mid-'60s to the early-'80s? Maybe into the mid-'80s?
I remember when she started I was very young. Gibbs was in a one-room shack with one of those conical fireplaces kind of like this one. (I recall it being orange.) After a couple of years they moved to a bigger building, and they kept the fireplace. The last building I remember had actual offices and a Link trainer in it.
I remember one of their airplanes. I’d never been in it, but it was a 1964(?) Cessna 150, N6228T. It was an older plane, and they called it ‘Shaky Jake’. It was involved in a fatal mid-air collision in 1972.
I remember another airplane: a 1970 Cessna 172. That’s it parked at Gibbs. Dad bought it in 1976, and I got my license in it (at WJF) in 1984.
Seems to me that someone with this ability would have endless opportunities to cash in. Off the top of my head, you could dress up as Superman and do kids’ parties and county fairs.
(sorry, couldn’t resist)
mmm
As others have pointed out, it’s really difficult to get even a low end financial return on this. It’s like farming, people do it for the love of it and if they’re lucky with enough hard work and paying dues someday they may barely get by.
Late one night I saw an advertisement for local hospitals looking for private pilots to volunteer to fly organs all over the state, I called them up and said I’d do it. That was until they told me I’d have to rent the plane, pay for the gas and all the other fees out of my pocket.
But since you said:
I got my private 8 years ago, so my advice:
-Save up a chunk of change before you start and really dedicate 3 months or so to this endeavour. The expense is the flying time and the less time spent between lessons the more you’ll retrain and the less you’ll have to review. You need 40 hours in the air to get your private but the national average is 56, I got mine in 42 with focus in the course and going up twice a week.
-Get yourself a good David Clark headset, you don’t need the noise cancelling ones but a good pair should set you back around $300. If you’ve decided you really want to fly it’ll be money well spent.
-If you can try and find a ‘mom and pop’ type operation, obviously every place is different, but in my experience cost does not necessarily equal quality.
Good Luck.
I remember your mom. She was (is) a great person who actually ran that place. All the Gibbs people were (are) great.
I remember Gibbs well. Also N7711G and it’s unfortunate end with the PSA jet. (I’d flown with Marty a few times) Damn, I remember the collision of the 150. IIRC, it hit a 182. The 150 crashed in my apartment complex and the 182 crashed and burned by a church a hundred yards away. I lived close to where everyone entered the 45 to the downwind leg of 28L. Matter of fact, I was one of the first on the scene that terrible day. Bert is the one who gave me my check ride for my pvt. Small world.
D O N O T apply for anything beyond a 3rd class medical unless you intend to get a commercial license. If you fail a higher medical rating you cannot go back.
If you own your own plane you could modify it and get into the air photography business.
