Being a pilot was always a dream of mine. I’d watch planes fly overhead, and imagine the freedom of being up in the sky. I also like the idea of being able to just take off and visit another part of the country, or even the world. There are a number of places I would go visit or revisit if I had that ability.
Reality always had other plans, however, and I’ve been grounded most of my life.
Circumstances are changing, however, and it is possible that I may have the discretionary income required to have such an expensive hobby in the near future, but I am also looking for a reality check to see if I am actually nearing that financial position, or if I need to wait a bit longer.
Where would be the best places to start? We have a few small airports around that offer flight training. Is there some way of telling which are more reputable, and which may be just trying to scam my money? Any particular certifications they should have or have accreditation to offer?
If that all goes well, then I would want to fly my own plane around. I have no idea what rentals are like, if they are even available. So, what would be a good starter plane? I wouldn’t want to get something too expensive, but I’m not looking to cheap out on false economy either.
What kinds of costs are usually involved in buying and maintaining your own plane? What would the normal cost of a flight, say a couple hundred miles, be, with fuel and maintenance costs built in?
I am very detail oriented, and making and following checklists is almost a hobby of mine, so I think I would be able to operate safely from that standpoint, but are there other traits that are beneficial or detrimental that I should be aware of? I am a hair away from 40, is there any reason that that is too old to get started?
Anything else you think I should know?
Any answers or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Well this one got lobbed right into my strike zone…
I fly airplanes for a living and it’s a second career for me. You don’t seem to be talking about doing it professionally, but I can relate because I learned to fly relatively late too (I soloed two days before I turned 30).
Since it’s been a while now, I’m not up on rental vs. owning costs. Best way to research that is to call up your local airports and find out what they charge to rent. Having said that, here are a few general pieces of advice, and the board’s other pilots will be along soon too, I’m sure:
It’s almost always more cost-effective to rent than own. You’ll find a lot of opinions on this topic, a lot of them coming up with a magic number of hours at which it’s better to own. I’ve always been dubious for two reasons. One, it’s always more expensive than you plan. And two, you can’t put a price on owning if that’s what you really want. Meaning, if it’s worth it to you not to have to schedule it and take the plane whenever you want, and you have the means, it might be worth it to you to own.
Me? I’ve always aspired to fly other people’s airplanes. When you rent and something needs maintenance attention, you tell the mechanic and walk away. Not your problem. When you own, everything is your problem.
To get any real utility out of flying, to plan a trip and know you can launch and make it under most conditions, you’ll need both a Private Pilot license and an Instrument Rating. The first is a big enough venture for many people. IFR ups the ante on your skill, commitment and monetary investment in a big way.
But if you don’t care about that and are happy to leave the plane in the hangar when the clouds are low, don’t worry about it. But make that decision knowingly and be ready to cancel trips. Quickest way to get dead in aviation is to mess with weather you’re unqualified and / or unprepared for.
Yes, there is a difference between flight schools. Read up on the ones around you and find people to talk to who trained there.
There are two basic types of flight schools: Part 91 and Part 141 (of the FAA regulations).
Part 91 are usually smaller, “Mom and Pop” flight schools. 141 tend to be bigger, can sometimes get you through your license faster, but are beholden to very strict curricula and rules. People ask me what I think and I say, “The advantage of Part 141 schools is that they are highly standardized. The disadvantage is that they are highly standardized.” I worked at a Part 91 when I was an instructor and liked it, but that’s just me.
All that said, it may take some time to find an instructor who clicks with you. Don’t be afraid to try a few.
Price. As I said, I’m out of date on current prices. But there are a few ways places charge for rentals. Usually it’s by “Hobbs Time”. There is a meter in many trainers that tracks time by the tenth of the hour. More uncommonly, some places will track it by engine tachometer time. Some will also give you discounts if you buy a block of a certain number of hours. Often, you will pay the instructor separately, as they may be independent contractors.
Make sure you like it before making an major investments. Most flight schools offer “discovery flights” of 30-60 minutes. Go take a couple in different types of planes at different flight schools. I’ve seen a few students who decided it wasn’t for them for whatever reason.
All that said, I say go for it. Lots of fun, lots of learning. I never intended to fly planes for a living, but here I am having a blast.
First step would be to go to your local general aviation airport and find a flight instructor … for a price he’ll take you up and show you some of the basics, like turning and going up and down … if you like what you did then buy a log book, write down your time, sign up for ground school and set up more instruction time …
Don’t fly through thunderstorms … trust me on this one …
My suggestion would be to find a local gliding club if there is one. Getting your glider license can be pretty inexpensive and outside of the engine related stuff (admittedly, that is quite a bit) glider flying is “real” flying. I have several friends who went the glider-first route and both they and their instructors were impressed with how quickly they progressed. I never went the power route. Its expensive and, for fun flying, its hard to beat soaring. The U.S. Air Force Academy trains its’ pilots in gliders first so, there’s that.
Having just spent two days at the BFA convention. I have to ask, do you want to be a pilot, or an airplane pilot? There isadifference in training, both time & cost.
My 14 year old son is currently taking flying lessons. Here is my advice:
Get a third class medical certificate. I would do this first. Because if you can’t get a third class medical certificate, there’s no reason to go any further.
Purchase these online videos. It’s $398, but well worth it IMO. After watching watching the videos on the written portion of the test, take the test.
Find a local flight instructor, preferably one who owns their own plane. Keep taking lessons until the instructor signs you off.
Watch the Checkride videos (#2 above), and then take the FAA Oral and Practical Tests.
Llama Llogophile covered it in the first response.
Go up for an ‘introductory lesson’. If you like it, start your training. If you have ‘a few small airports’ nearby, you should have a good choice of instructors. Instructors are like people; you get along with some, and you don’t with others. (I got along with all of mine.) If you don’t ‘click’, it’s better for you and the instructor to find one you do ‘click’ with.
My training in airplanes and helicopters was with Part 91 schools. I have no experience with Part 141 ones. Llama Llogophile said, ‘The advantage of Part 141 schools is that they are highly standardized. The disadvantage is that they are highly standardized.’ My feeling is that Pat 91 schools are more flexible to student’ individual personalities and learning styles. Every place I’ve flown insisted that they do not have a set schedule. They won’t sign you off until they are certain you are a good pilot. If you’re cynical, you may think that the more they think you’re ‘not ready’, the more money they make. (I got this impression from one place up here when I tried, before realising I couldn’t afford it, to get back in the air.) But when I first started, both in airplanes and helicopters, my instructors and their Part 91 operations really cared and wanted to turn out the best pilots they could.
A ‘magic number’ I commonly hear for ownership versus renting is 300 hours. If you fly more than 300 hours per year, it makes sense to own. Remember that you’re not just paying for fuel. There’s fuel, oil, tie-down/hangar, a reserve for the engine overhaul, a reserve for annual inspections, a reserve for scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, insurance, etc. The high rental prices seem not to have very much profit for the FBO. My dad owned two airplanes, a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 182. He bought them as ‘tax shelters’. I know that for the Skylane anyway, he was making a profit on lease-back. There are 52 weeks in a year. Let’s say you live in a place where you can fly 50 weekends. 300 hours per year is six hours a week. That’s kind of a lot. But with your own plane you generally don’t have to schedule it and can take it out whenever you want. (Unless it’s on leaseback, of course.)
Flight training can sometimes be hard, and sometimes be frustrating. Relax. Remember that flying is supposed to be fun!
Right, Part 141 schools are oriented toward creating professional pilots for the airlines and business aviation, and essentially require full-time commitment on a fixed schedule. If you plan on flying only recreationally, and can devote only spare time and weekends to it, Part 91, which is most of them, is the way to go. It’s easy to tell from websites which is which.
Right now I am looking for personal use, but, sure, if my path takes me to flying commercially, I wouldn’t object.
As I am running a business right now that is potentially profitable enough to allow me to make this decision, that’s my primary focus for income for now.
I’ve gone to their websites and seen their rental rates. Bit pricey, in some ways, but reasonable enough.
In some ways, I do like to hear that it doesn’t save money to own rather than buy. That’s a big upfront investment into something that would take a while to determine what I would actually want to fly. If it were a matter that it was significantly less expensive to own than to rent, it would make sense to make that investment though.
I do aspire to own a plane eventually, if that is what makes sense. But I’d rather put that off until I know more what I am getting into.
That’s done in steps, it seems. So I’d get the private license, then IFR later. IFR didn’t seem to usually cost all that much more (well, a few thousand thousand) than the initial license.
Not knowing anything about it, I would actually think that IFR is easier than VFR. Following instruments seems it is safer, easier, and less prone to arbitrary mistakes than using visual clues. Plus, I assume that you can’t auto-pilot on VFR.
Is the cost that you are talking about in the training, or in the avionics? I’ve seen that they can cost a pretty nickel, but it did seem that most of the planes that local airports have to rent are listed as having IFR ratings.
How do you tell exactly. I scoured their websites, and I didn’t see any references to 91 or 141 on any of them.
I assume it doesn’t really matter, in the long run, just which is a more comfortable fit and schedule?
Unlike cars, it doesn’t seem as though you can do “one-way” rentals. One of the reasons that I would want to fly is to go places and visit things that are too far to drive, and I really don’t like flying commercial aviation. (Not in safety or anything, just in inconvenience and being crammed into a tube with hundreds of other people, along with dealing with the security theater.) the airports around here advertise that they have multi-day rates, but they don’t say what they actually are. I suppose it varies too much to really put on the website.
I’ve also heard about leasing, but I don’t see anyone in the area advertising for that.
I will have to do that. I was thinking from the descriptions on their websites that they sounded more touristy than actually useful, but if you (and others in this thread) think that they are actually beneficial, then that is where I will be starting.
We never know where we are going, we just have to hope we enjoy the journey as much as the destination.
I appreciate it. You’ve answered a few of the basic question that I had in even knowing where to look to really get started to have better questions.
I’ve perused it a bit, but it’s a bit of an omnibus with over a thousand posts. I am sure there is useful information in there, somewhere. I will continue to peruse, as if nothing else, there are some entertaining stories.
That could certainly be a disadvantage. Do you have the ability to get a second opinion? Say you are at 80 hours, and your instructor is wanting you to get another 10 or so before he signs off, is it easy enough to transfer your instruction and flight time to someone else who will either give you better instruction or to certify that you are ready?
So, that’s a question on offsetting cost. Is it worthwhile at all to own a plane and rent it out? I wouldn’t expect to actually make money on the deal, but if it could subsidize the cost of ownership, that could be beneficial. If I only fly it 200 hours a year, if I get someone else to fly it 50 or so, that can make it more economical.
I’ve watched some flight training videos on youtube, and it actually looks fairly fun as well. I spent years driving professionally, so had a pre-dispatch checklist to fill out every morning before taking the van. I still follow a mental brief checklist every time I get into my car. I actually enjoy driving, if it were not for other drivers, that’s pretty much all that frustrates me. Between having a bit more separation between planes than cars, and pilots being just a bit better trained than your average car driver, I would think think that that frustration would be pretty minimal.
As far as youtube videos and computer flight simulators(not the big ones at training schools, but like Microsoft’s flight simulator), do those actually have any use? I know that watching a youtube video isn’t going to count towards flight time, but would it actually cut down on the amount of training time required, or would it just be giving me knowledge in a less than useful way. (In that I think I know things that I don’t really know, and so have to be untrained out of something before I can be trained properly.)
It would seem that the 91 would be a better fit. I still don’t see where they talk about 91 vs 141 on their websites, but their descriptions of their training programs sounds much more like 91.
This is getting ahead of ourselves, as you already have a bit of a journey toward your PPL in front of you, but no, instruments are not easier. And not necessarily safer either in small prop planes because they have little or no icing protection. You’ll get an earful on this during your training, and will do some instrument flying as part of the PPL.
I only mention it now to start giving you a healthy respect for instrument flying and weather. It’s important.
Both. If you find a really good instructor that you like and he or she is more expensive than others, pay the extra. You’ll also find a fair bit of difference in cost for various planes, and it will likely be extra for planes with advanced avionics* or even basic IFR setups.
As another poster said, it will probably be apparent if it’s a 141 school. But you can just ask when you call or visit. Some places actually have both options. And again, as previously mentioned, Part 91 is probably what you want because of the schedule flexibility.
When you are learning to fly, you are the client. You can do whatever you want - get a second opinion, change instructors, whatever. But try your best to find a good instructor and stay with them. Very likely, you will fly with another instructor prior to solo as a double-check anyway (the term of art is “stage check” at more formal flight schools). 80 hours would be very late to decide to make big changes.
Don’t bother with the flight sims. They can get you in bad habits. Later on, during instrument training they can be useful. But the best thing you could do now is go up in real planes and find a good instructor.
I want to make you aware of the avionics situation. There are now some flight schools that will train you in Technically Advanced Aircraft such as a Cirrus, and there’s some debate about whether this is a good idea. A lot of factors here you can read about. I’ll start you off with my opinion which is TAAs are fine, but I strongly suggest you get some experience with traditional (round or “steam” gauge" instruments) first. If you learn those, I think you’ll have less trouble stepping up to the fancy stuff, whereas going the other direction can be problematic.
The minimum time for a pilot’s certificate is 40 hours, 20 dual instruction and 20 solo. Most people require about 50 to 60 before they are signed off to take their check ride. The more often you fly, the fewer hours it should take. If, like most people, you stretch it out, then there will be more ‘review’ in each lesson. I started my training one April, and finished in July of the following year. Since I stretched it out, it took 48.2 hours before I took my check ride (including 0.9 hours solo from WJF to APV to meet the examiner for my check ride). So if you’re at 80 hours and still haven’t been signed off to take your check ride, you either have a poor instructor or school or you might not be cut out to be a pilot.
Your hours belong to you, and they are in your log book that also belongs to you. So there’s no ‘transfer’ of flight time. If it’s not working out with your instructor, just find another one. He or she will review your log book and take you up to evaluate ‘where you are’ in your training and go from there.
Dad made money in the '70s and '80s. Today making a profit is harder because there are fewer pilots and fewer people who want to become pilots. But many people do see leasebacks as a way to subsidise their own flying. One thing to consider: If your airplane is being used commercially, your expenses go up. You will need inspections every 100 hours in addition to the annual (the annual may be substituted for one of the 100-hour checks) and your insurance will be much higher.
Huh, shows what I know. But, that’s why I’m asking questions.
I appreciate your patience.
Cool, I actually spend more time in front of a computer these days than I really want to. If your advice had been to go out and spend 100 hours on MFS before I bother to go get training, that would have been disappointing.
During the solo portion, the instructor is on the ground, I take it. Does that mean that you don’t have to actually schedule the time with the instructor and just do it on your own, or do they need to be on the clock while you are in the air?
I brought that up because you mentioned that one may think that they are just being jerked around to get their money. I figured 80 hours would probably be a bit excessive one way or the other. If it is you, not them, it seems they should let you know that things aren’t going anywhere, to let you save your money.
Good to know. Even if I don’t have some sort of issue with an instructor, I would like to get different perspectives anyway. Would an instructor feel insulted that I want to take a lesson from someone else for a while?
Also, the log book. That seems a very valuable item. I assume you can keep copies of it, so if the original is lost or destroyed, you don’t just lose all that flight time, or does it actually have to be the original? (If that’s the case, I’d be getting a new flight book every 25 or so hours of flight time, and keeping the old ones in a safe deposit box.
I am sure that if I get that far, then it will be easier to see how that decision will play out. Was just a thought, but it is good to know that it is an option.
Here’s what’s customary, though YMMV. Usually, the first couple of solos are supervised. When I was instructing I used to watch from nearby with a hand-held radio just in case (never used it that I can recall). In those situations, I was on the clock. On later solos, particularly if the student owned the aircraft, I would not be directly supervising and not charging. But I did ask my students to let me know when they were flying so we could check weather and such.
On solo cross country flights (navigation training flights) I’d help the student plan the first couple (on the clock for the ground, not the flight portion). Later, I’d just check the student’s planning before authorizing the trip (not usually enough time to justify being on the clock).
You can keep a logbook however you want - in a longhand book, on the computer, whatever. But for solo flights as a student you need to actually carry it with you. Copy it, keep two identical, however you like.
After training you’re not actually required to keep a logbook, though most people do, especially if they’re going to carry passengers because you then need to show currency. Technically, a private pilot (say, one who only flies solo) only needs to keep evidence of a flight review every two years. When you take your medical every so often, the hours you report there are “official” as far as the FAA is concerned. If you were to lose every trace of your logbook, those hours listed on your last medical would be the record kept.
I have two log books. The first one was for fixed-wing, and the second has a column for helicopters. So I put the total hours from the first book into the second one and went from there. I put both log books into an Excel spreadsheet, copying everything from the comments portion (instructor names and certificate numbers, etc.). I never did get around to copying endorsements (biennials, high-performance endorsement, required R-22 recurrent training), but I should do that. If I ever lose my physical books, I’ll certify that the electronic copy is true and correct.
Definitely go get a 3rd-class medical first, unless you’re absolutely sure you’ll qualify. There are several common conditions the FAA considers either totally disqualifying, or requiring a great deal of additional work: colorblindness, attention-deficit disorder, any history of depression, etc. It’s good to get this out of the way early to avoid any unpleasant surprises when you’re already $5,000 in.
Computer flight simulators are useful in practicing for your instrument rating. They are not very helpful for your initial private pilot license (PPL), and in many ways are probably harmful because they teach you the wrong habits. I’d suggest staying away from the computers until you have your PPL.
Regarding costs: the all-in cost of flying an entry-level single-engine piston airplane is somewhere around $150 / flight hour. These planes will do approximately 150 mph, so you can consider your cost to be approximately $1 per mile (in a straight line). You can probably do a bit better than these numbers if you own your own plane and fly a lot (in order to amortize the fixed costs), or if you find a great rental deal on a fast airplane, but they’re pretty close.
With faster planes, the cost rises more than linearly with speed, so a 200 mph plane might cost more like $1.25 per mile.
When you rent, you generally pay only for flight hours, i.e. only the time during which the engine is running. If you rent from a busy flight school or club, the club may enforce a minimum number of flight hours per day that you have the plane. For my club, it’s two hours per 24-hour period. So, if you just want to go up for a quick flight on a Saturday afternoon, there’s no minimum. If you want to take the plane for a 3-day long weekend, they’ll expect you to fly a minimum of 6 hours over the entire trip.
If you want to buy a plane, the capital costs are pretty substantial. A brand-new airplane that will seat two people and is not instrument certified will cost approximately $150,000. A more capable, but still “entry-level” airplane that will seat 4 and can be flown IFR is approximately $350,000.
If you want to buy used, $100,000 will buy you a rather heavily used, 20 or 30 year-old plane. Keep in mind that you need to allocate approximately $30,000 to overhaul the engine every 2,000 flight hours or so. You can certainly find airworthy airplanes for less than $100,000 - as low as $30,000, maybe - but they’ll be from the 1950s or 1960s and have avionics and equipment from the same era, and you need to be prepared to spend extra on maintenance to keep them in the air.
If you have a good club to rent from, and you don’t have a ton of extra money laying around, renting can be great. I am lucky to have a great club with a number of planes to choose from - if I decide I want to go flying over a given weekend, usually there’s a plane available. I know exactly how much a flight is going to cost me, and someone else takes care of the maintenance, unexpected expenses, washing the dead bugs off the wings, etc.
On the other hand, in the city I used to live in, there were many fewer planes available, and renting was a hassle and had to be planned a week or so in advance.
Renting is a little stressful though - you are always accountable for returning the plane on-time, and unless your club is totally dead, someone is probably expecting it back at least by tomorrow, if not later the same day. So you’re always sort of watching the clock and/or the weather and trying to make sure you’ll make it back on time. At least, I am. And of course, there’s always the chance that you’ll suddenly decide you need to make a trip (to meet a friend in Vegas, for example), and find that all the planes are booked.
A typical ‘entry-level’ airplane is the Cessna 172 Skyhawk or a Piper PA-28 Cherokee. Both of these aircraft top out at around 139 mph. A hundred and fifty is a bit optimistic for those airplanes. A Cessna 150 only goes about 115 mph.
On the used market, a hundred kilobucks will get you a pretty nice, newer Skyhawk or Cherokee. For example, a 1999 172R with fewer than 3,000 hours is currently available for $95,000. It’s easy to find an early- to mid-'70s Skyhawk for $40,000 or so. Of course then, the question of price is like asking ‘How big is a book?’ Too many variables for a meaningful answer. (i.e., $25,000 to 100,000 depending on ‘stuff’ isn’t really helpful.) And different makes have different prices. More 172s have been made than any aircraft ever, so in my casual observation a same-year, same-condition Cherokee or Grumman will typically cost more. Lots of 150/152s were made, but they seem to go for as much as a Skyhawk. I’m guessing that’s because they’re in demand and they don’t make them anymore. A Champion or Ercoupe are also underpowered 2-seaters, and they can be had for $15,000 to $25,000 (keeping in mind the ‘How big is a book’ rule).
Here’s the thing: You can buy an airplane for less than the price of many new economy cars. Heck, you can get a twin for the price of an SUV. But you’re still going to pay maintenance on a $380,000 airplane (new Skyhawk) or a million-dollar new twin.
There are many ways you can make this happen without being rich, but you have to be smart about it. Some even split plane ownership along with maintenance and hangar costs, although I think many still prefer to be the sole owner to keep the hours down. I was 31 before I got my PPL, and rich I wasn’t. That was back in the early nineties, and it only cost me $1,700 out of my pocket which was even a decent price then. Today, it’ll run you about $6,000-$8,000. Just went to D/FW last week to drop off my propellor for an inspection, and that was the price they gave me at their flying school. While I was there, I inquired about rental of a Cessna 172. They said $225.00 an hour wet.
You can still get your PPL for under $2,000. Here’s how.
Consider avoiding the flying schools altogether. Plenty of certified flight instructors will teach you to fly, there are plenty of active and retired Air Force pilots at my small airport that do this on the side. Most charge $30-$35 an hour. To get your private pilot’s license you need a minimum of 40 hours flight time, with half of that being with an instructor. Find you a affordable used plane on Barnstormers you like and buy it. Now you’re out only fuel costs and paying the instructor.
Consider buying a experimental plane from manufacturer that has a good reputation. I personally like Van’s Aircraft, they are responsible for 25% of experimental aircraft sales, and their quickbuild kits save you thousands of hours. Over 10,000 of Van’s Aircraft are flying to date, with me being one of them. Plenty of used ones to buy now on Barnstormers, so you don’t have to build it yourself. For the low and slow, consider a Cub Clone, perhaps Bearhawk, but there are plenty you can consider here. These planes are really not as experimental as the names implies if you get a reputable manufacturer and a quality builder, of which there are plenty. Many instructors don’t mind giving you your training in an experimental, if the build quality is good. If you haven’t been to Oshkosh at least once in your lifetime, then, you haven’t lived. Find out about EAA when they come to town. Typically over one million experimental plane enthusiasts gather during this time.
Possibly start with the Sport License which allows you to fly LSA (Light Sport Aircraft). I believe only 20 hours are needed for it, although there are restrictions. If you decide to pursue your PPL later, you’ll already have half the hours built up.
Don’t rule out Ultralights. No pilot’s license needed, but definitely get training. I personally like the Quicksilver Sprint. Take off and land in 50’. It can almost get you in anywhere that a helicopter can. Naturally, these are not made for cross country trips, just for a local fun flyer.
Become an aiport bum. Do get check rides in a variety of different planes, certified and experimental, tricycle gear and taildraggers. Most of the smaller airports are friendly, and are buzzing with activity on the weekends when the WX is nice. Many enjoy talking airplanes, and also giving out rides. I’ve given out plenty. You’re not in the north TX or southern CO area, are you? Have several great instructors at my airport in TX.
Although I have yet to do this myself, I highly recommend what another suggested about finding a sailplane club. It’s on my bucket list. These are very affordable, and will improve your flying skills tremendously. Watch some youtube clips of sailplane pilots traveling hundreds of miles, skimming mountain tops, truly amazing what they can do with a lot of WX knowledge and how it applies to their sailplane.
Find out about EAA when they come to town. Typically over one million experimental plane enthusiasts gather during this time.
