The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other)

What I consider really dumb is the design / engineering that simply forgot about the center of gravity, forcing Swiss to scramble for a quick fix.
It is also a really dumb PR move to let it become public knowledge that Swiss now has a heavier carbon footprint due to schlepping around dead weight simply so the rich snobs can travel in more luxury while the unwashed masses will get even more uncomfortable seats in order to save on weight.

Apart from that, one assumes that it makes economic sense.

I’d actually like to have a look at the numbers for the occupancy rates of these suites, and how often they are sold at full price. Staying with Swiss as an example, 3 luxury suites will be replacing 8 first class seats. How many economy seats could one have instead? 15? 20? I wonder if this really turns a significant extra profit, or if it is more of a marketing effect.

In local news (a couple/few miles from here):

bp Cherry Point near Birch Bay is slated to receive nearly $26.8 million to help the refinery to produce sustainable aviation fuel (SAF) for the first time. …

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, SAF consists of renewable biomass and waste that has a smaller carbon footprint than petroleum-based jet fuel. …

The Cherry Point production will supply fuel to airports in the region through the Olympic Pipeline, which runs from Ferndale to Portland. …

Which was something I’ve seen suggested elsewhere – rather than carrying around dead weight, why not add more padding to the economy seats to make them more comfortable? I think on the long haul routes these planes fly I would prefer a more thickly padded seat over a little more legroom, as long as the legroom is adequate.

Surprisingly hard to do, once the seat is designed and certified before being sold to any airline/OEM/customer.

The seat was designed with X inches of padding of exactly this foam and that’s how the crash tests were done and you cannot deviate at all without retesting flammability and/or crash testing which is really expensive.

So no changes.

Buy the UltraSlim3000 Seat with In-Flight Entertainment as-is, or don’t buy it at all. Do you want blue or grey seat covers? We can add stripes and other trivial “aesthetics”.

I totally understand where you are coming from but I think in reality the PR is excellent. They’ve managed to spin what is essentially a “Swiss has new first class seats” travel fluff piece, into a slightly contentious issue that people care about just enough to spread the news around but not enough to create any meaningful backlash.

No cite as I can’t remember where I saw it. But some aviation guy once argued that the first class and business seats subsidise the coach seats by an enormous amount. He claimed it was a kind of trickle down economics that actually worked for the little guy for once. But I’m sure that was a self serving argument.

The whole industry relies on a certain symbiosis between the full fare coach and first class demographic versus the discounted fares demographic.

The few folks in the former group pay a hefty and very outsized fraction of the total revenue on the flight. While the many folks on various discounted fares are numerous, but their total contribution to revenue, much less profit is rather modest. At the limit, the cheapest of the cheapos in back are sold for just a dollar above breakeven marginal costs, given that flight 123 is already going from ABC to DEF on Tuesday.

And that given is the keystone of the whole system. In a capital intensive biz selling a perishable product, utilization is the key to profit. Keep the jets full and keep them moving.


Summarizing / simplifying mightily, an industry that had only first class or even first class and full fare (but only full fare) coach would be a lot smaller. There is demand for that product, but not ginormous demand. As a result there would be far fewer airplanes flying and far fewer flights per day between ABC and DEF. Which would inconvenience the fatcats and business travelers who want convenience and frequency and would be willing to pay something towards that.

Which Bizarro world was exactly what the USA (and most other nations) had in the old regulated era. What was discovered promptly post-deregulation in the USA in 1978 is that there is a huge demand for cheap travel. The challenge is how to provide it profitably. Bigger airplanes with cheaper smaller seats is one way. Hub and spoke operations in another way. Red-eye flying is a third way.

By adding in cheap coach seats the airline takes in more total revenue per flight but ever less marginal revenue per seat. As long as they can do that profitably they can grow the fleet and offer more seats between ABC and DEF. Thereby helping the fatcats and full-fares who want that frequency.

There totally are airlines trying various fatcat-only services. Typically they founder on only being able to serve a few city pairs that have enough factcat travel density to make it work. And they’re typically flying smaller jets like RJs, but reconfigured with many fewer much larger seats, better amenities, separate terminals to avoid the crowds, etc. IOW: trying to offer the private jet experience lite without quite the eye-watering pricetag of that truly luxo service.

There are also airlines offering no-frills cheapo only. Those typically hope to capture enough market share they can then quietly ramp the actual price while still loudly advertising that they’re still cheap. Southwest is now the world champion at that. Spirit is much farther back in its journey to transition from “is cheap” to “is widely believed to be cheap”.

As a separate matter, it’s absurdly easy for a new airline to get financing and jets and workers on the cheap. So at first their costs truly can be lower so their break-even fares are lower. After a few years’ honeymoon though, the airplanes come off warrantee, the workers who’ve stayed want real wages, etc. So costs start rising. Some carriers make the higher costs + higher fares = still profitable transition successfully. Most don’t and shut down. Then a new company springs up in their place to live the same lifecycle again.

Bottom line being it’s hard to survive as a urly high end or purely bottom feeding operation. The two together form a balanced diet. Different markets and different stage lengths demand a different mix for max profitability. But get too far off the standard mix and profitability becomes elusive or, if you deviate far enough to one extreme or the other, impossible. Then you eventual bankruptcy is just a matter of time and investor patience.

Thanks for all that. It never occurred to me before that much of it (not all) comes down to “airlines let economy-class travelers exist so the luxury-class ones have more options about when to fly.”

I think you have the history forwards but the current motivation sorta backwards.

When the industry started at the end of the Depression before WWII it was purely for the yachts-and-mansions set. Before deregulation in 1978 that had expanded to doctors, lawyers, executives, successful small-medium businesspeople, etc. And their immediate families.

Post-deregulation, volume is king. Instead of 10% of Americans having ever flown it’s now more like 75% do so every year. Complete change in emphasis.

From the airlines’ perspective both individually and collectively, lots of full jets is Good. Bigger jets are cheaper = Better than smaller, if you can fill them every time. From the full-fare-and-up customers’ POV, more frequency and more airlines and more destinations is Good. From the cheapo price shoppers’ perspective lots of low-priced seats to fun places (plus wherever Grandma lives) is Good.

It’s a mutually reinforcing 3-legged stool. Given the distribution of disposable income up and down the scale it cannot be otherwise.

Source? I am finding it more like 50%. This survey with historical data has 49% for 2023, latest year available [it has 75% for last 5 years for 2021, 68% for last 5 years for 2022–only years with a 5 year number]:

That wasn’t an anally extracted number, but I was going from long term memory, not current research. I’ll defer to your cite; if anyone would have a statistically legit number, it’d be A4A.

Sorry to be lazy. I was pecking on my phone, which I really ought not do for more than 1-line replies. That’s my story excuse and I’m stickin’ to it! :wink:

I went to see Airport at a revival theater today. I posted my thoguhts in the “movies you’ve seen recently” thread, but thought I’d mention it here, too. It’s a great aviation time capsule, from the days when airplanes served real food on real dishes, and men wore a jacket and tie even when they were planning to blow up the plane. And I love George Kennedy in it.

Joe Bob says check it out.

would CHARTER count as 4th leg on this 3 legged stool? … and is charter still considered “thats where the unwashed masses can fly for the first time” as it prob. was in the 80ies and 90ies …

Well that’s going to cause talk.

That’ll just buff out.

“Knocked the tail off?” It’s not like the empennage is delicately balanced on the fuselage. I think “ripped the tail off” would be more accurate.

Apparently the victim A/C is a Canadair CL-600, so a fairly small plane that just got completely bullied on the taxiways.

How about ‘torn asunder’? ‘Torn asunder’ is a phrase not used often enough.

In twain, even.

It’s OK; no messy lawsuits. They were both Delta:

The wingtip of a Delta Airbus A350 “came into contact” with a Delta CRJ 900 regional jet operated by Endeavor Airlines, Delta Air Lines spokesperson Anthony Black said.

Gotta love the narration in PastTense’s link: “… you see the tail of the plane right there [nearly severed, left tip of horizontal stab touching the ground] - it apparently has been damaged.”