The floor of the Class B airspace over downtown L.A. is 2,500 feet. Here is a chart. (NB: This .jpg image from the AOPA website downloaded onto my computer instead of just opening up.)
I loved flying around the metropolitan L.A. area in a helicopter. Especially transitioning LAX airspace off the coast. The instructions are to maintain 100 feet or below. 
I didn’t sing on my first solo, or my first solo in the helicopter either. But there were times, taking off from a field and making a low turn around a tree that I did hum The Ride Of The Valkyries. 
Give that man a cigar!
Very cool to see. I only looked up as it had a rather unique sound.
OK, so before any of y’all responded, I decided to go hang out at the airport even if it did make me loony. I was told the instructor I was going to use was flying at the time, so I just hung out for a while watching take-offs and landings. Ultimately, a different instructor came back after flying with a student, so I ended up talking to him for a little bit. Long story short, I ended up taking a lesson with him spur of the moment.
We took off from KWHP Runway 12 in N19688, a 1972 Cessna 172L. We turned left and headed up into the Santa Clarita Valley into the practice area. It’s pretty warm out today, and definitely windy over the mountains, so I was finding myself fairly unhappy with the turbulence, unfortunately. For a while, I was convinced that I was not going to be able to do the flying thing. I won’t say that I was completely comfortable even by the end of the flight, but I was much better toward the end.
Throughout the flight, he was managing the throttle and, for the most part, the trim, but he left me in complete control of the yoke and rudder. I had specifically discussed with him how I wasn’t sure how much “help” I was getting when I went up for the demo flight last weekend, so he made sure I knew that I was the one flying the plane. He spent a little time having me execute turns, primarily following the 14 Fwy north. Then he had me head off to the left for a bit. I didn’t know what he had planned, but he took me for a touch-and-go at Agua Dulce Airport (L70)! Even though I was still fairly nervous about the turbulence, I thought that was really cool.
From there, we headed back south and he had me work on more turning, rolling out on specific headings. He seemed pretty comfortable with me handling the plane since he took a photo of me at the helm and messed around with his phone a bit while I flew. And, to my surprise, he continued to let me control yoke and rudder as we came into land. He left me in control to divert the plane as we got out of the way of oncoming traffic, and as we descended to short final, he gave a nudge here and there (with both yoke and rudder) but kept me hands- (and feet-)on all the way down.
Ultimately, I logged 1.1 hours of dual time with two take-offs and two landings. I dunno how much is said honestly by a trainer versus things said to bolster a student, but when I asked him how I did, he said, “You were really good. Most people aren’t actually flying the plane of their first flight.” So, I am pleased at my luck at getting to go up today, and now I have to settle down and decide if I’m really going to pursue this. I think it’s good for me to have a goal like this in my life, and I think it will continue to help me with my turbulence issues. But the school does want you to commit to whether you’re actually going to become a student (I assume because I’d need insurance and maybe some other things), and so I really need to figure out money and time issues.
I’ve got some thinking to do.
Where’s your smile? Flying is supposed to be fun! 
IANA flight instructor, but I think a good instructor will tell be honest and tell you the where you need improvement as well as what you did right. It would be counterproductive for instructors to discourage a student, but constructive criticism is always welcome. Good on you for telling him your concerns about who’s working the controls. The instructor responded appropriately by making sure you had the controls and that you knew it. The throttle takes a little finesse at first, so his working that (and the trim) let you concentrate on maneuvering. He sounds pretty good.
So how did you like the older airplane? (Looks like it needs a new door seal, BTW.)
Ten years from now you’re going to be ten years older either way. You’ll either be flying, or still thinking about it and regretting not having started flying ten years earlier. Only you can make that call.
Assuming you go ahead, it’s actually good to fly with a different instructor than your regular one once in awhile. Your regular one, assuming you settle in with one you feel compatible with (personalities do vary and do matter), being human, is inevitably going to have some weak or blind spots that another one can identify and help you fix.
Yeah, I know. And it WAS fun, but I’m feeling extremely reflective right now, and so the smile is being temporarily replaced by a look of deep thought. 
I liked him. He made me feel as comfortable as I could be up there. I worried at first that when the wind blew us off course a bit, that he might grab the yoke and take over. But that never happened. He gave me the opportunity to correct things myself and would calmly let me know if, for example, we were losing altitude and that I needed to get the nose back up. He never seemed concerned about my ability to stay in control of the plane.
I don’t really have anything to compare it to yet. My plane from last weekend was a '79 C-182RG, so they both felt about the same in terms of age. Assuming I continue on this path, I will probably want to try a newer plane at least once. But the difference in price for the plane they had me scheduled to go up in on Wednesday and the plane I was in today is about $44/hr, which makes a HUGE difference in cost over the time it would take for me to get my license. So for now, older is my friend!
ElvisL1ves, I agree with your logic, and if money and time were no object, I don’t think I’d have any hesitation. But I’m reluctant to take out a loan to get my license. And both money and the fact that I’m working a two-month trial in Chicago in January mean that my free time is about to quickly transition to limited and then to zilch. And I’ve heard that if you can’t get up at least once a week, it’s kind of a waste of time. So it may be best for me to let it go until I get back from Chicago and try to save up the overtime I rack up in the meantime so I can tackle this from a better position next year.
Nothing wrong with an older plane! Admittedly, the newest one I’ve flown was an '81, but I think a Skyhawk flies like a Skyhawk.
Speaking of older planes, I see that Barron Thomas has a '77 172N for sale for $20,000. The engine is past TBO, but it passes Annual. So there’s another $16,000 for whoever buys it. So is it fair to say that a mid-'70s 172N with a newly-overhauled or low-time engine is worth about $36,000 on the market?
While learning to fly you will, inevitably, have to deal with things you find difficult and/or uncomfortable. This is, in part deliberate. You need to learn how to deal with something uncomfortable, how to deal with potential emergencies, and how to troubleshoot on the fly (literally). Done appropriately, this will increase your confidence. I have had to face genuine in-flight emergencies but, despite real fear, I was able to deal with the problem(s) competently. You can learn to do this, too.
Here’s the secret - making the airplane go where you want to isn’t that hard, as you’re discovering. The instructor is certainly keeping an eye on things, even if it looks like he isn’t (well, except for that one who fell asleep during my lesson but I fired his ass). The thing is, as a student you fly the airplane even if at first you don’t quite believe you are.
Yes, there are some tricky bits but right now you’re learning the basic and easy parts. When you master those don’t worry, you’ll move on to more difficult things. And you’ll master those as well.
Should something arise that might be hazardous during a lesson your instructor will take over, quite likely before a beginning student is aware of the problem. One of his main duties right now is to keep you safe while you learn the ins and outs of flying. That actually seldom requires him to manipulate the controls, though he will do so to demonstrate maneuvers. Actually, a significant portion of keeping you safe involves looking out the window while you fly, keeping an eye out for other airplanes, changing weather, and so forth.
The will want you to fly as much as possible. One time, when I was getting a stage check I started getting nauseous - this surprised the hell out of everyone because I had a reputation for never getting airsick no matter what (it turned out I was coming down with the local stomach bug). The guy doing the mini-flight exam insisted I continue to pilot the airplane despite feeling awful, because, as he pointed out, if I had been up alone or with passengers there would be no other choice so I better learn to cope (he did say if it got truly hazardous he’d take over). I damn near puked on him a couple times, but successfully landed the airplane before running off the the Little Pilot’s Room to unload lunch. Really, they train you to the point where even under such adverse conditions you can still fly in a competent manner.
That, by the way, was how I met the man who would later be the examiner on my official private pilot checkride. Nothing like almost vomiting on someone to make a first and lasting impression on someone, right? Oh, yes, he remembered me. Also didn’t hold it against me, I’m happy to say.
Most instructors are pretty honest. They’ll try to phrase a negative in a way that’s not too bruising, but they’ll let you know where your strengths and weaknesses are.
While it’s legal and done to take years to get a license (I did - life kept interfering with my hobby) it’s generally considered best to try and do it in 6-12 months. Yes, money is an on-going issue, and even after you get your license you need to fly regularly to keep your skills up.
One reason I chose NOT to pursue an instrument rating was because I simply couldn’t afford to fly the proper sorts of airplanes frequently enough to maintain the rating - and in that case, why get it in the first place? That’s also why I stopped flying a retractable gear airplane after 9 hours - I looked at the numbers and realize that I just couldn’t afford it long term. So I spent my time and money flying airplanes that were slower, less sexy, and would get hopelessly lost in a fog because I could afford to fly those often enough to keep my skills sharp.
That’s totally cool. I’ve often said flying is the most serious fun you can have.
That’s because you’re flying the airplane. You learn it by actually doing it. That also means the instructor will, up to a point, allow/encourage you to correct your own errors (such as telling you to correct losing altitude).
The goal here is to turn you into a pilot in command. As you continue your lessons you will be more and more in charge of the flights.
I’ve flown a 1942 airplane and a 2005 airplane, when the latter was only three months old. They’re all fun.
I tend to favor airplanes from between 1955 and 1970 for the mix of user-friendliness and affordability. I also favor fixed gear due to lesser cost as well.
As long as the airplane is properly maintained (and you can ask to see the plane’s logbooks - good operators have no problem showing them to you, and I’ve met a few who make a point of showing them to pilots as a matter of pride they have in being in compliance with regulations) age usually isn’t much of a factor. Choosing to fly more often in a less costly airplane is a perfectly valid strategy, and for a student flying more often is almost always a good thing.
Speaking as someone who’s training was interrupted several times (at one point I had a nine month hiatus) I’d recommend waiting until you’re back from Chicago and saving up that money. Being forced to take time off from training is no fun and can be very frustrating. You won’t forget everything, but it will add to the time you spend as a student.
Right now, there’s nothing wrong with doing a little more research, making another hour or two with various instructors or at a different school, then doing the Chicago thing before making the time and money commitment to get a license. You might also consider starting on some of the ground work. I did my ground school work as a self-study supplemented by a few hours of one-on-one tutoring with my CFI for the spots I needed some help with. It’s not the best method for everyone, but a CFI might be able to recommended some reading to get you started on the right track for that. The important thing is to get good information and not develop bad habits. Which is why I’m not specifically recommending anything, the CFI’s around here would probably give you better advice than I would.
However, I highly recommended reading the FAR/AIM on business trips when you’re having trouble getting to sleep. It never failed to make me drowsy in 20 minutes or less…
There isn’t that much difference between older and newer planes. A 1960s 172 flies pretty much the same as a 2000 172. I’d just pick the cheapest plane you can fit in and do your initial training in that. Plenty of time to play with other planes once you have your certificate.
One thing you can work on now is really cheap. You probably know that before you can get your certificate you have to pass a “written” test (actually done on a computer now). The test covers systems, regulations, navigation, weather, and stuff like that. You’ll learn a lot studying for that test and you’ll probably get more out of your flying lessons if you’ve learned all the stuff you need for the written. (When I got my instrument rating my instructor wouldn’t even start the flying lessons until I passed the written for that). Lots of places offer face to face or online classes to prep for this but both my wife and I scored in the high 90’s just studying a $15 test prep book.
Right - a newer plane will have a lot of stuff in the panel that you’ll need to learn how to use later on, if you become a professional pilot. Some FBO’s work on that basis. But a G1000 and an autopilot are of no use to a primary student at all; they just cost more to rent and cause distractions. You’re just looking to learn how to feel and control an airplane, and you might as well do it cheaply. You’re also not looking to spend a lot of time sitting on a taxiway waiting for a controller to let you go fly a few patterns (the Hobbs meter is still running even then). You want to be flying. IOW, it’s both cheaper and more effective a learning experience to find an older, cheaper (but well-maintained; safety matters) plane and instructor at a smaller, rural, uncontrolled field for primary training. You can build from there once you have your PPL.
It’s also true that you do lose muscle memory between lessons, until you’ve flown enough to get them locked in, and that never happens completely anyway. You can do just fine flying weekends only; a lot of people do that and it works, but it does take more time overall. Still, if you have to take a few months off, I agree it might be better to start afterward. I’ll certainly endorse the recommendation to learn what you can on the ground when you can - there are plenty of great books and DVD’s available that you can work from in odd moments wherever you find them.
One option, if you can do it, is to do it all in a canned course that only takes about two weeks - there are schools in Florida and Arizona that work that way. Flying full time every day gets you past the muscle memory issue, but you do have to devote full time. I believe they all ask you to get the written test done first.
As for the total cost, yes, it may look like a lot to spend on a hobby. But the total cost of getting your PPL is only about as much as it costs to buy a medium-quality used car, and you can then keep flying for roughly the cost of a serious golf habit. There are things you can’t do if you choose to spend that money on this instead, but that’s true of *any *choice in life. If it’s a priority for you, you can make it work.
Thanks for the the responses - regrettably I will not get to correct the colleague in question, stupid layoffs. I did traverse LAX with Rick back when - interesting, but there was a bit of information overload at the time…
So I see we’re telling our first solo stories.
3/22/1976 Schweizer 2-33 N1239S Aero tow, release 3000’ at Sky Sailing, Fremont.
For a first sailplane solo, I think they always say just do an airport circuit. That is, just take off, release as soon as you get to altitude, and just immediately re-enter the pattern and land. We don’t commonly do touch-and-go much in gliders.
For my log:
Well, having stopped short, I had to drag the plane a ways back to the parking area. No sweat, right. Gliders are light, right? Except I forgot to close the spoilers, which also meant the wheel brake was still on. So I dragged the poor glider half the length of the runway with the brake on.
All you people with the first solo stories – How many of you got the back of your shirt cut off? They weren’t doing that at Sky Sailing when I was there.
ETA: Up-thread I mentioned that I had a flight where the altimeter was sticky. Upon re-reading my old log book, I see this was solo flight #12, which was also in N1239S – which I had soloed in 4 times previously. So maybe it wasn’t always sticky like that.
I found that I was not cut out to be an instructor rather quickly after getting the instructor rating.
Long time ago.
Grass field.
Farmer older than I bought an Aeronca Champ to learn to fly with.
I had 53 hrs as an instructor.
Could not get him to follow directions or follow demonstrations.
I think he had a problem with listening to a younger person or I was just wrong for him.
Almost at touch down with a slight cross wind, for the third circuit in a row, I had to save the plane.
4th time, same thing, so I crossed my arms and let him crash us.
Some bending occurred, not injury level though.
I fired him as a student and never instructed again.
If you become openly defiant or abusive because you own the plane,
I will tell you 3 times.
I will show you three times.
Do it again, I’ll tell you I am folding my arms and then I fold my arms.
Not a good response as an instructor.
Helped a lot of guys learn stuff over the years but never entered ‘instruction’ in anyone’s log book ever again.
I much prefer being the student.
Yikes!
There are old CFI’s and there are bold CFI’s, but there are no old bold CFI’s.
First solo story.
I learned to fly gliders in a club. Through the club, you payed for your flights and tows, but the instructors were volunteers. Good economics, but poor consistency, because you got a different instructor each Saturday…club only did instruction on Saturdays, which is another issue, because you lose a lot between lessons when they only come once a week, and the instructor had only the notes in your log book to judge your ability level prior to takeoff.
A few years before I had joined the club, a commercial glider operation opened nearby. In order encourage the commercial operation (weekday towing available, woohoo!) the club stopped doing instruction. The commercial operation eventually went under, and the club again started doing instruction a year or so before I started. The crew of instructors was pretty green though. It turned out that they had never soloed an ab-initio pilot since instruction had resumed… only power pilots transitioning to gliders. The whole bunch were kind of spooked over the idea. I had resigned myself to it being a long, long time before I would solo.
But then my best buddy Bob pointed out this older guy, Hal Bonney, in the club (far from the oldest though) who had been flying anything and about forever. Besides being one of the finer humans I have had the honor of knowing, Hal had flown medivac helicopters in Viet Nam, had done some long line work in big helicopters, and I have no idea what else. He had a glider instructor rating, and was a tow pilot. He would come out to the field every Sunday just hoping the scheduled tow pilot didn’t show up, or that at least he would want a lunch break…or maybe there would be a student looking for some extra instruction. For a couple of months I became that student.
I mentioned that the regular instructor crew were kind of green and timid. Hal was not in the least timid. He’d pull the plug on you at no-shit 200’ and maybe a bit lower, but not if there was any possibility you might be expecting it. He’d lock his arm on the spoiler lever and make you land without them. He’d hand you the soap dishes and tell you that a bug had fouled the static ports and you would now be flying without ASI or altimeter…and you’d get a nice earful if the yawstring wasn’t dead straight, especially in the pattern.
Well one Saturday, the schedualed instructor didn’t show, so Hal took over. When I flew with him, he said another week or two I’d be ready to solo, but he wanted to see some calm air work first, so show up early Sunday, and we’d do that.
When I got to the airport, I helped Hal drag the tug out of the hanger, and he took it up to warm it up, so we wouldn’t have to wait for the tow pilot to do so. And we might as well get the glider out and preflighted so we’d be all ready to go.
That done, still no tow pilot. " Well, "says Hal, “I guess we’ll just have to make do, get in the glider, release at 2000’, make some turns, don’t stray out of gliding range of the runway, and keep your yaw string straight.” He then hooked up the tow rope and climbed into the Pawnee.
After I got off tow, I spotted the tow pilot’s car parked behind a hanger where Hal had told him to hide. Also Bob’s car, as he had been tipped and was waiting with the camera and scissors when I landed.
Hal moved to California a year or so later. Bob and I visited Calistoga soaring in Napa, but Hal wasn’t around that day…well it was Christmass day. A few years later, Hal dropped in for a visit, and I think I embarrased him with a big hug. Damned near kissed him too. Oh, I’m a big hairy ugly guy, BTW.
For those of you who have not specifically said already, how many hours of dual time did you log before you were given the opportunity to solo?
And further, how long (both in logged hours and in calendar time) did it take from the time you took your first lesson to the time you received your pilot’s license?
And finally, just because I can’t resist sounded even more like a generic reporter, what was the hardest part of learning to fly for each of you? Where did you struggle the most? (And I mean with the actual flying itself, not monetary or time struggles.)
One thing I have always been curious about.
Is there the equivalent of Hertz or Avis for aircraft? For example, let’s say I want to fly from Houston to Las Vegas for a Taekwondo tournament. If I don’t own my own craft, could I rent a plane from somebody, fly it to LV and drop it, then pick up another plane five days later and fly it back? The mind boggles at the thought of renting a plane and have it sitting idle for five days with the meter running.
I started at age 15, soloed at 16 with 20 hours, then had to wait until 17yo to get my license with about 60 hours under my belt.
The hardest part was waiting until I was 17!
My first solo was almost my last. I weighed about 110 and my instructor, Big Mel Romine, RIP, went about 310 or more. The first control he introduced me to was the trim wheel!
As I lifted off - woo hoo! - I started drifting/turning right, but I wasn’t doing it.
There was no wind, and I’m confused as hell, starting to get scared about holding the yoke at about 10 o’clock just to stay level.
Just then, a voice came in my headset: “Trim it.”
That’s all he said, and all he needed to. I immediately realized what I had done.
He had hopped out and said “Take it around.” and I did just that.:smack:
Stoopid kid.
Mel’s weight almost cost him one night.
3 convicts escapedfrom a field trip to the bowling alley and made it to Mel’s airport.
They forced him at gunpoint to fly them somewhere. Now Mel and 3 guys in a 182 wasn’t gonna work. They didn’t want to hear excuses, overweight, trees, no power, etc…
Mel said they hit the treetops with his wheels as they barely made it away.
They forced him to land on a road in Arkansas - from Dickson, TN - on empty tanks.
Eventually they were all caught and convicted of kidnapping and more.
Mel didn’t really like talking about it.
Beechcraft Starship: Ol’ Burt is my hero.
One comes over the house here in ATL about once a month. I can hear him coming 2miles away. I’ll grab my wife and drag her away from the trees to show her…
Ducati: Look! Here comes that Starship I showed you at PDK! There’s only 8 left!
Mrs. : Hmm.
Duc: Some guy bought all the scraps and leftover parts to keep it running. Remember how the prop is open and pushes instead of pulling?
Mrs. : I think we’re out of carrots.
Duc: It has a cunard wing in the front to prevent stalls just like the VariEze and the VariViggen. It’s an awesome design feature! Burt Rutan is a fucking genius.
He’s the one who built the White Knight and SpaceShip One we saw on the tee-vee!
Mrs: Looks like rain. I’m going to bring in the chair cushions.
Duc: 
(emphasis added)
Calistoga!
OMG, this belongs in that nearby MPSIMS thread “For Geezers Only”!
A fabulously beautiful place – but the glider port has been long gone for umpty-ump years now!
If you got above the ridge there, you could see all the way to Mt. Diablo!
After that, there was a glider port up the hill, just past nearby Middletown, but even that has been closed down for quite some time. Last time I drove by there (maybe two years ago or so?) the property hads a for-sale sign.