How much available, appropriately sized real estate do you think there is in lower Manhattan?
All of this has been discussed in great detail already, so I’ll say this quickly: there is already another Islamic center about two blocks further from the WTC site. It’s not as big, but it’s been there for 30 years or so. Perhaps more importantly, moving this facility would not shut anyone up. There have been protests around the country at the opening of mosques and Islamic centers that are not near any kind of sensitive location.
The local community board endorsed the Islamic center proposal. Beyond that, putting this up for a vote would be inappropriate. Why do the people behind Park51 have to face more scrutiny than the people who want to open another shoe store or another Starbucks or another strip club? That’s unfair.
But only in election years.
This is not on the site of anything except a Burlington Coat Factory.
There’s not always a middle ground in these things. Sometimes you find you’re opposed to what someone is doing, but you have to acknowledge they have the right to do what they want, and you have the same.
It’s not a community decision and civil rights cannot be put to public referendums.
People don’t have a right to not be offended. They have no say in the matter, and that’s the end of it. It doesn’t affect them and it’s none of their business. There is no middle ground for Constitutional rights. Anyone who doesn’t like the Constitution is free to leave the country.
The reason people are protesting is because of its location, not because it is a mosque. The people who oppose it want it moved. so move it. If they are still not happy well you can say “eff you” because they got what they wanted. Yes, the board and officials said it is ok, but the community and various citizens themselves did not agree with it. They face the “scrutiny” because the islamic faith has been associated with 9/11 as well as the background of the people who caused it. A strip club and/or a shoe store is completely irrelevant to 9/11.
Your final comment about acknowledging the “right they have” is exactly what i recently talked about. yes they have the right, and everybody knows that (even those who oppose). but it isnt a matter of whether they CAN, it is a matter of whether they SHOULD.
People have a say in whatever the hell they want. And it is clear that they have a say in this matter. Whether their say affects the problem, that is a different story. I feel like most immigrants or people who weren’t born in the US, came here for our constitution so they can do practically whatever they want…to me that is taking advantage of our constitution.
No, actually, they don’t. Being able to say what they want is not the same thing as having a say about the civil rights of others. This community center is none of their effing buiness. Full stop.
Yes, they are taking advantage of our Constitution. Of course they are. That’s the whole point of our Constitution.
The people bulding this community center are not immigrants, though. They are Americans. If you don’t like Americans taking advantage of their Constitutional rights as Americans, you are free to move to Mexico.
That’s a terrible way to conduct business and live your life. If you move, the complainers win and are encouraged to throw a fit whenever they want. (It’s unfortunate that this kind of thing has to be discussed in those kinds of terms, but that’s where the national conversation went on this one.) The end result is that they’re still complaining at you, and you’re not satisfied either because you gave in to people who are never going to approve of you regardless of what you do. The fact that people were complaining does not mean their complaint had merit.
You’re oversimplifying. Some locals were fine with the proposal and some were not. People in Manhattan were generally supportive. The further they got from the area and from the city, the more people were opposed to the plan.
According to whom?
How do you define whether someone should do something? Your answer appears to be “if you want to do something and your idea upsets someone else, you shouldn’t do it.” A few moments’ reflection should be enough to tell you that’s foolish. Are all complaints valid, or should we perhaps think about whether or not the complaint has MERIT? Being considerate and accomodating is nice and all, but I don’t think it’s an end unto itself.
You don’t have a monopoly on the Constitution. Other people get to use it, too. And the imam who is spearheading this facility has been in the U.S. since the 1960s, and he’s led a mosque in lower Manhattan for almost 30 years. I’m getting the sense that may be longer than you’ve been alive. If you have the sense that he sneaked into New York City in the dead of night to build a mosque in a sensitive location, you’re wrong.
fair enough. miscommunication on my part. If this mosque lasts, and people keep protesting. I sure hope nobody gets pissed off at the protesters. Because they can express themselves because “they didn’t have a say” so this is their way of expressing…and expressing freedom of speech.
I was not implying that they were immigrants (sorry if it came off that way). Everyone CAN take advantage of their constitutional rights, but SHOULD they? haha just kidding. I would rather not get into that point.
I didn’t think you were saying they were here illegally. I thought you were making an unfair comment about immigrants and implying they shouldn’t have all the same rights you do - that somehow your exercise of your Constitutional rights is more legitimate than theirs just by accident of your birth. And I thought that comment was wrong. You don’t get extra rights because you were a citizen at birth instead of being naturalized. (I know, I know, naturalized citizens can’t be president. You get the point.)
Nobody (whether immigrant or born here) can do “whatever they want”. They *can *assert their Constitutional rights. That’s not ‘taking advantage’, that’s what the Constitution is for.
I think it is very important that the center be built right where they originally wanted. Across the nation people have demonstrated against the building of Muslim religious buildings. They have been ignited by the fake "ground zero "claims. It is un-American to stop religious buildings from being built. Freedom of religion is very important in American philosophy. We can not abandon it when it gets a little uncomfortable because of a pseudo-news stations campaign. Build it now.
The protestors can express themselves and I can get pissed off at them for being idiots. These things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it’s what “freedom of speech” means.
Why must you insist? It’s a community center that includes a worship space. Like a YMCA that has a chapel.
Does a YMCA two blocks from The Oklahoma City bombing offend you? The perpetrators were Christian.
God I am sick of bigoted non-New Yorkers telling New Yorkers what they should think about something that doesn’t and never will affect them. Go [heart] your own goddamn city, and leave us to our liberal, non-brown-people-fearing ways.
Right. If you weren’t aware, MinkyBinks735, there were protests of planned mosques or Islamic community centers in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and Temecula, California, at the same time as the furor over Park51. It’s not a coincidence.
I don’t know about Terry Nichols, but I thought Tim McVeigh called himself an agnostic. Not that it changes the broader issue here.
Here’s the way I see it. For an American, this is not an issue. Only those who are against what makes America the great country it is deem this to be an issue.
The people who are protesting are mad for the simple reason that someone told them that if it was permitted, then the “Mooslims” will have won. It has nothing to do with the location; they’d have found a different reason to be mad if the proposed community center had been moved to New Jersey.
(The Imam has already said that he would be amenable to a new location and NOT ONE protestor has proposed finding a way to come up with a way to reimburse him for the money he has already spent to secure the property so that he could find a different location.)
This is not true. The people who have opposed the new center have been people from Queens and Brooklyn and places outside New York state. The people in Tribeca, (the Manhattan neighborhood where the Imam has operated for decades and where he intends to remain), have made no such protest.
So, you are suggesting that we cater to ignorance and xenophobia? Obviously, since the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Nations appeal to “Christian” values, (and explicitly targets people who are not Christian, (Jews) or people whom they refuse to identify as Christian, (Catholics), we should demand that the next “Christian” center that wishes to open should be hounded out of any neighborhood where it is proposed.
Of course, if you do not choose to believe that every small group within a world wide religion should be held responsible for, (or be “associated with”), the religion’s loudest and most violent splinter factions, then you should probably not be speaking as though the actions of the al Qaeda faction the Wahhabist movement of Islam should be “associated with” with all Muslims.
I originally posted this thread so people could state their position on it…not for me to constantly get attacked for it. My keyboard is slowly dying. The simple answer is that neither side is right. It is just a matter of opinion and whatever ends up happening, will not satisfy everyone.
