Can ask a question without people ripping my face off?
Yes? Good.
Keeping in mind that I could care less why anyone uses a scooter and would probably use one myself if the mood struck me, can any one suggest what sort of medical condition would enable a person to climb a 150 step set of stairs but prevent them from walking around a park?
My friend Ed had a leg amputated above the knee. He could walk up stairs to a degree, but walking around a park he could not do.
and frankly, many mobility related issue means that you have a finite amount of energy, ability to move. So, even my friends w/ Rhuemetoid Arthritus could do either walk around the park or walk up the stairs to a ride from time to time, but not both. Since there’s not an option of ‘not walking up the stairs’, they would opt for the ‘get assistance w/the whole walking around the park gig’.
the adaptive device allows some one w/substantially reduced ability to be mobile to have the option of participating in the outing in the park. w/o the adaption, they’d probably opt to not go in the first place, or simply walk from place to place and sit and wait while other members of their party rode the ride, having to sit alone while the other members made it up the stairs etc.
Mine might (post-traumatic arthritis and associated post-surgical tendon/ligament damage; see my post above). Climbing 150 stairs only takes a few minutes. My issue is usually one of endurance. Oddly enough, I can do certain low-impact but high-energy activities for hours on end, but sometimes even short stints spent standing in one place or walking create severe pain and/or swelling. It’s a matter of the weight being placed on my ankle joint for long periods.
For example, I can bike 50 miles with few problems, but after an hour ambling through, say, a museum, I am frequently quite sore.
Cool - that’s what I was assuming - an either or sort of thing.
My nine year old son made a comment to me about how cool it would be to own a “fat-cart.” I had no idea what he was talking about. When questioned, he indicated that everyone he saw riding those electric carts at walmart was fat so he thought they were carts for fat people. He claims to never have seen anyone who was not overweight drive one. From the mouths of babes.
really. :dubious:
well, thanks for sharing.
Well, I never did shop at Wal-Mart while I was without the full use of my leg, but I sure did take advantage of the carts at my local supermarket, the zoo, the Botanic Gardens, and a number of museums. I would have gotten myself a wheelchair, but my apartment has no elevator, and it’s rather difficult to carry a wheelchair down the stairs if one lives alone and is on crutches. I kept hoping the leg situation was going to be temporary, but I spent the majority of a three-year period needing crutches or a cane to get around. Eventually a friend found me a cheapo beat-up wheelchair in a thrift shop, which enabled me (with the help of friends) to get out of the house for longer periods; sometimes my then-boyfriend would take me out to the park for a walk/roll down the bikepath. Maybe your son’s observation has more to do with the people who shop at that specific Wal-Mart than it does with the laziness of fat Americans.
Plus, did you ever think there’s a correlation between obesity and certain disabilities? (A very complex correlation, but a correlation nonetheless.) The two are not mutually exclusive, but that’s a whole other thread. I gained maybe 10-15 lbs. during my leg debacle for a variety of reasons, including the difficulty of exercising while mobility-impaired, the difficulty of keeping my normal, reasonably healthy diet while unable to shop or cook for myself from scratch as I am accustomed to doing, and depression caused in part by sheer frustration at being an otherwise healthy 20-something person who couldn’t walk and had suddenly lost a large degree of independence through no fault of her own.
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Of course.
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As I’ve said, I make no claims to being able to judge individual need. If you need one, you should have one. My permission should not be needed, and consideration and courtesy should be expected without question.
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If you have both a cart and an attitude when using it, I think that’s a cery bad thing. Just as you expect and deserve courtesy, you must also offer it.
“Running people down” is not acceptable behavior under any circumstances and certainly not an amusement park populated by a large number of small children. You may kill one, and indeed I was concerned for my child’s safety with the not uncommon recklessness and abandon by which they were driven.
You are operating a heavy piece of machine which can be both a danger and an inconvenience to those around you. The burden is on you to use discretion and behave in a safe manner.
You expect and deserve courtesy. Old Scylla huffing around with a backpack, his three year old (who frequently wants to be carried) and his pregnant wife in tow also thinks he deserves courtesy.
If you come zipping up behind me on your mobile recliner and pass me safely with patience and courtesy we will have no problem and I may even smile at you. If you come up behind me like Lady of the Manor and demand that I have eyes in the back of my head so that I can depart the path by stepping aside so that I do not delay your stately progress, then I am apt to be less sanguine.
If you are not competant operating your machine, and endanger or injur my child or wife because you somehow percieve that the stopping distance of your machine is my responsibility as a pedestrian rather than yours as the operator, than you can expect that I will act in an extreme fashion
As the operator of a heavy machine, I would hope that you would work under the assumption that people around you may behave stupidly because they are not aware of your presence. It is your responsibility to make sure that you can stop in time if pedestrians around you behave stupidly. I’m glad you made the extreme effort you did, and I’m sorry your ankle paid the price.
That being said, when I drive my car and there are kids around me playing ball, or walking through a parking lot, I drive very slow so that I can stop in time if they do something stupid.
Have you considered the possibility that perhaps you were going a little fast for the situation?
Agreed. You seem to have misread my OP. This is what I’ve been saying and I have no argument. However, a Doctor’s note, or a placard is not required to rent one of these devices for a small fee at Hershey park, nor is anything like that required to take one of the courtesy ones available at Walmart. According to Hershey Park’s policy on their website, these are available simply on a first come first served basis.
I see no reason why abuse could not be almost completely curtailed if these were only available to handicapped people. You are not allowed to use a handicapped space without a placard simply because if we let people just decide for themselves those spaces would always be full and they would not be available to those who need them. They are reserved for legitimate use.
It would affect a person in need of a scooter not at all if he/she had to present a placard, or a handicapped license to rent one or use one.
In fact, it would benefit everybody. Like handicapped spaces, the scooters would be available for those that need them. Without abuse, we can assume that there would be less of them, making the park safer and more convenient for everybody. Less abuse should also stop people from being resentful and we could expect a more courteous attitude to those in them.
What is the problem with this idea?
Not only do I accept that, I applaud it. I believe you have misread my statements to suggest otherwise.
I am more than happy to inconvenience myself in such a circumstance to ensure that those with less mobility have the same access to goods and services that I do. It is only right.
I only wish that my goodwill is also returned, and that the privileges are not abused by those truly not needy, and I will insist in all circumstances that those using those devices do so responsibly. If you are on one it is your responsibility to make sure you don’t endanger anybody.
Again, it seems to me that you have not read my OP. These carts are available to anybody who wants them on a first come first serve basis at Hershey Park and most other amusement parks. They are available for free use at Walmart and many other shopping centers and malls.
While I am not qualified to judge any particular person’s need this does not mean that I am blind to the observation of general trends.
When the usage of these carts literally explodes, and the preponderance of users are what appears to be the able-bodied, one may compare and contrast with the past and deduce a reasonable conclusion.
To my past observation these carts were not exactly uncommon, but not all that usual in such environs. In the preponderance of cases where one encountered them, the reason for the use was obvious. In perhaps a third to a quarter of cases it was not.
Now the carts are very common and in perhaps 90-95% of instances the reason they are needed is not obvious.
Now I suppose it’s possible that there has been a sudden and dramatic increase in invisible handicaps in the last 3 or 4 years. I also suppose it is possible that there is a sudden increase in the motivation of handicapped people to get out and do things.
If either of these is the case I have no problem.
What is more logical and reasonable is the it is not a “small number” of abuses, but rather a large number that is responsible for the dramatic increase.
Why? That makes no sense to me. It seems a reasonale and simple solution to restric the use to those with demonstrated need through a placard or ID. We do it with handicapped spots. Why shouldn’t we do it with the scooter rentals?
How would you feel if you needed to rent a scooter and it wasn’t there because some eighteen year old kid thought it would be fun to take it?
You would probably be righteously pissed.
**Scylla, ** as I mentioned before, the criteria for obtaining a handicapped placard are very strict (in Illinois, one must be unable to walk more than 100 yards unassisted). I’ve had temporary handicapped decals in the past, and thank God I don’t need one anymore.
However, there are still occasions when I, and others similarly situated, could legitimately benefit from some help in getting around, especially for more than a few minutes at a time, as when one is spending the day at an amusement park (or a museum, for that matter). It’s one thing to be able to drag oneself a few dozen yards, at most, to a destination where one will then be sitting down for the remainder of one’s stay, and it’s quite another to be able to function as an able-bodied person for hours and hours on end.
Do you think, then, that we should relax the criteria for handicapped decals? (I don’t; I think they’re abused quite enough already, and would actually be a fan of stricter enforcement.) Or do you think we should come up with a completely seperate set of criteria for cart usage? How would you do this, as a practical matter, beyond having an examining physician at the gates of Disney World?
I would think that if you had a handicapped decal that that would qualify you for a cart without any further ado.
As for carts, I would think that it needn’t be anything but simple. We could do it like we do a prescription. If a doctor thinks you need one he can prescribe one. You get a card either temporary or permanent that entitles you to a cart rental (or free use as the case may be) at Department stores, amusement parks and other places.
So confident am I in the abuse I witness, I would happily pay higher admission prices to make the carts available for free in such circumstances.
In fact, it is kind of unfair that people that need them can’t travel unassisted if they need somebody to load and unload their cart for them. And, it’s a shame that they need to pay rental fees just to access goods and services available to everyone else for free.
I would support the free use of carts at public facilities (parks museums, airports, municipal buildings) as well as amusement parks, department stores, malls etc.
Make them available. Make them free. Protect the privilege for those who need them by requiring a prescription.
On the bright side, everywhere I’ve ever had to use a cart, it was free (except the Brookfield Zoo, plus their carts sucked; they worked like strollers, so that you needed someone to push you). All I had to do was leave I.D. at the front desk.
Good! I don’t think providing them is such a hardship to our society. I do think we need to be reasonable about it, though.
I read things like Thatddperson wrote about running people down, and blaming pedestrians about stopping distance rather than herself as the driver, and I’m pretty sure that I have a point.
These things can be dangerous. They cause inconvenience. Their use should be limited to those in need.
On the other side of the coin, controls need to be in place to benefit everybody.
I read what ThatDDperson and her attitude about running people down and expecting other people to be responsible for her stopping distance really bothered me.
I’m not qualified to judge medical need, but I think it’s easy to judge this attitude. It’s not one that somebody in a cart should have.
Some have very temporary mobility issues. For example, the mother to be who is 39 weeks pregnant and retaining so much water one day that walking a few feet is painful, but the next can walk with relative ease.
What makes you think that a prescription is a good way to prevent abuse? Handicapped parking permits are tightly controlled now because some doctors gave them out freely to just about anyone who would ask. Now, even a temporary permit can take months to get.
People who cannot easily afford a doctor’s visit for every ailment do suffer mobility problems, often that are temporary. Bringing a prescription into this raises the cost of those who use the device. It also raises the cost of those providing the mobility devices as they then have to get into the area of enforcement.
What about those that don’t need the device for most acitivies, say someone else does their shopping, but only for extraordinary events, like a visit to a theme park? Should that person really be required to need to plan far enough ahead to be able to visit the doctor before the outing as well as incur the cost of the doctor’s visit?
What’s next, use of handicapped stalls in bathrooms by permit only?
Oh, dear God in Heaven…another person with no fucking sense of humor…Yes, you have a point. That point would be that you are pretty clueless about a LOT of things.
Tell me, would a mean old woman BREAK AN ANKLE to avoid hitting a child that was pushed out about 15 inches in front of her?? Good God, I really NEEDED 3 surgeries and a pin in my ankle for the rest of my life because some clueless idiot wanted to strike an innocent child.
Catch a context clue.
If one is unable to understand the problems of mass, forward movement and inertia, one needs to not go out in public where the BIG cars are, much less into a store where there are corners to come around and not bother to look up.
Now we need to consider the problems inherent in taking the parking placard INTO the store or park, thereby leaving the car???Hovering in midsair above the hard-to-find handicapped space? In the fire lane out front? At home, just WALK there??
Honestly, I am just agape at the whole taking seriously the concept of running someone over. Do I have to resort to stupid smiley faces to get across the concept that YOU as a pedestrian are responsible for an acceptable level of alertness that at least matches the lettuce in the produce department??
I think I need to have a talk with my friend that suggested I come here to get away from the overly dim bulbs posting on another board. I’m not sure that she’s aiming in the right direction.
TWO posts about it, yet.
Irony. Look it up. Hyperbole. Look it up, too.
::sigh::
I would suggest you go and look up irony yourself, as your grasp of the concept is about as keen as Alanis Morissette’s.
Which is, actually, ironic.
Scylla - why on earth should I (or anyone) have to essentially open some medical history file for the perusal of Cart checker #3 at Seaworld?
as has been pointed out, too, some of the issues are temporary in nature, may not have required medical attention.
One day I tripped going up stairs, fell and really did a number on my leg. wasn’t able to get to the doctors until several hours later. Sure would have really appreciated some assistance in the meantime.
You claim that you aren’t in the position of judging some one’s individual need, yet that’s exactly what you’re doing - you spell out people who you believe, based on your observations don’t really ‘need’ the devices, based again, on your criteria. and assuming that there exists abuse.
your evidence for abuse being a significant problem was related in your OP. and I submit to you that you haven’t met the burden of proof. You did not in fact see a group of teens playing on them. you saw people whose mobility issues were not apparent to the naked eye.
In my personal life, there’s several people who have mobility issues on a semi regular basis, and out of those, only one would meet your burden of ‘seems to need the assistance’.
Friend, former football player, burly, healthy young guy in his 30’s has gout. when it flares, it flares and he needs assistance. He doesn’t generally go to the doctor when it flares, he has the condition, he knows what to do. your system would require either that he carry a ‘card’ w/him at all times saying he might have need for assistance (which would also be subject to the abuse that you decry) or specifically schedule and pay for a medical appointment he doesn’t really need.
His dad, my friend Ed, had a prosthetic limb. Sure he could pull his pant leg up and ‘prove’ he had a need, but frankly, I don’t think he should be made to do so. Yes, he could have had a card from his doctor ‘proving’ his need, but again, some days he was feeling better than others, so again, the system would be subject to abuse.
My friend w/RA. when she’s in a flare up, she would need assistance. same situation as the guy w/gout.
Snookie w/RA, etc, same situation as guy w/gout.
my son when he was released from hospital. picture of health, but way too weak to walk more than a few feet.
Your words in your OP were very telling to me. In each case, you evaluated the persons obervable medical condition (other than obesity) and decided that they were using the carts because of convenience vs. need.
Look at that for a moment, please. what are you trying to get at?
What I read into it, is an assesment, that ‘some’ people may lack sufficient energy (due to being overweight, out of shape, elderly, or handicap) to completely partake in the park activities. That they’d ‘run out of steam’ after one ride or so if they couldn’t use a cart. and that bothers you. that if it’s ‘merely’ a way of conserving energy for themselves, vs. the rest o’ you folks who ‘tough it out’ and if you are too tired to go on, you leave, then I gotta ask you -
why do you get to make that decision for them (Or have the cart dweebs make the decision)? Is gout an ok excuse, but obesity isn’t? Why should Cart Dweeb get to decide that My friend Doug should only go on three rides 'cause his gout is acting up and he doesn’t have the energy to both walk to and participate on more than 3 rides w/o a cart? that’s essentially what you are demanding when you want the park to regulate, require proof of need prior to cart usage.
again - you seem to be making the assumption that somebody is going w/o a cart who ‘really needs it’. Do you have any evidence that this actually happens??
and let me ask a direct question:
do you feel that if some one’s mobility is limited simply because of obesity is that alone sufficient to ‘justify’ their need for a cart under those circumstances?
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I can’t imagine why, nor I have I suggested anybody should. What I have suggested is that it should work like this: If you think you need a cart and your Doctor agrees he prescribes you a pass (permanent or temporary) that you hand to cart checker #3. That pass entitles you to a cart. No invasion of privacy necessary.
People needing carts will need to take responsibility, too. If it’s not worth your time and effort to get a pass from your Doctor, then I think you don’t get a cart.
I don’t understand. Did you go to Hershey Park in the meantime? Go shopping at Walmart? Hang out at a mall?
Yes, and I explained my reasoning several times. To date that reasoning has not been addressed. Instead the original objection has just been repeated.
Again, I’ve illustrated my reasoning several times. If you disagree would you address it rather than simply repeating your objection? Please?
That is not my burden of proof. I have repeatedly acknowledged several times that people may not have apparent problems but still need a cart.
Ok. So he gets a card and puts it into his wallet, and he gets a cart whenever he needs it. What’s the problem?
So he gets a card. If he doesn’t want a cart on a given day, nobody says he has to take one. Yet he has the card when he needs it.
So a Doctor gives her a card. She uses it when she needs it. She doesn’ when she doesn’t. What’s the problem?
Same thing.
So give him a temporary card until he gets better (I’m hoping he improved quickly.)
Actually in any given case I wasn’t sure. In aggregrate there seemed to be a pattern which accompanied by the explosion in usage fits my hypothesis quite well.
Again, I’ve explained this several times, but all that happens is people ignore my explanation and repeat the original objection.
Look at that for a moment, please. what are you trying to get at?
Slightly. We all run out steam. Being tired or draggy doesn’t justify the usage in my eyes.
In fact, the issue is this. I am certainly not qualified to judge. That doesn’t mean the person that takes the cart is qualified to judge either.
If we all just simply got to choose whether or not we needed a handicapped spot on our own, they would always be full.
I think it’s reasonable and appropriate that there be a qualified third party such as a Doctor to judge need.
I don’t want the cart dweebs to evaluate need. I want a Doctor too.
Personally I think that if you are a lazy out of shape sonovagun, that doesn’t justify a cart. I however may be wrong. I am not a doctor. I want a qualified individual to evaluate the need.
Well the guy that said this happened would be one.
Your asking me a personal question outside of the scope of what I am suggesting. Personally I don’t beleive simple obesity uncomplicated by other factors justifies it.
Frankly I think anyone who wants the damn cart should get the damn cart.
Maybe I’m tired. Maybe I was out drinking the night before and want to take it easy. Maybe I’m just feeling like a lazy tuna and want to ride around. Maybe I think the cart looks like fun and want to give it a try.
Assuming I’m paying for it and I make a point to not run over your children, why or why not I use the cart is none of your business.
Really. It’s not.
I would think that those who legitimately need one of these carts would be just as offended by those who use them without need. That reduces the number of carts available to those who actually need them.
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True. I know little about gunnite manufacturing.
Ok. I will try harder next time.
Or pilot carts. I agree.
And you ask me to catch clues? How many times must I repeat this?
I don’t think as a joke it’s even funny, and whimsical irony doesn’t always work on a message board. You come off as somebody with a bad attitude who expects others to take responsibility for your cart driving limitations.
Ok.