Not being an actual historian, I’ve always thought that the war started on September1, 1939 with the invasion of Poland, much like our entry into it started on December 7, 1941. IMO, the declarations (September 3, 1939, December 8, 1941, December 11, 1941) were only formalities.
Interesting. I suppose that was logical, since up to that point WWI had often been referred to “the World War” (without knowing a second was on its way).
The Yalta Conference was held in February of '45; I can’t believe they waited that long to decide on a name! (I’ve been to the site, BTW; it’s still maintained exactly as it was back then).
Maybe such a resolution was made by Roosevelt and Churchill at one of their earlier meetings? As I recall, the three leaders met only one other time, in Teheran in '43.
I’ve always considered it began on 1 September 1939 too.
I should clarify this is how I see it too- WWII started when Hitler invaded Poland, the fact it took a few days to get the war declaration formalities on the Allied side sorted out afterwards notwithstanding.
You’re in good company - John Cleese agrees with you!
I think the more interesting subject is not when WWII began, but when it ended. Some experts believe that it ended not in 1945, but in June of 1947 with the capture of the Axis leaders.
But why 1939? Japan invaded China in 1937. So, if we say when did the first fighting of WWII start, it was 1937. Sure GB didn’t become involved until 1939, but then the US (and to a greater extent Japan) wasn’t part until 1941. Thus picking 1939 instead of 1937 is being just as localized as 1941.
So, the point is- not when the first shots were fired of what became WWII, but at what point did the various Conflicts become a World War? There I agree- once all World Powers were involved, it becomes a World War.(In WWI, the USA hovered on the edge of being a World Power).
I wish I could find the video, but in a “documentary” about UFO’s and the Bible one of the “experts” said that there are descriptions of UFO’s in Genesis and the apocryphal books that were written more than 5,000 years ago. He did not say that the events took place more than 5,000 years ago but specifically said they were written that long ago.
Even the most amateur Biblical historian knows that the oldest parts of the Bible date back to way less than 5,000 years ago- probably more like 3,000, and that’s only a few bits and pieces. It may sound insignificant until you think that the gap of 2,000 years, or even if you want to be really liberal and say it was just 1,000 years, is pretty significant when you’re trying to establish any kind of credence for the account; a millennium of hearsay kind of negates any claim.
Maybe, since they key word seems to be “World”, it’s not so much a matter of “world powers” as the geographic scope of the conflict. The Japan-China conflict was essentially a matter of a few thousand square miles of regional conflict. But Germany at war with the British empire did in fact include globe-spanning conflict, and the resulting U-boat war threatened to involve the US long before Pearl Harbor. The U-boat battles involved 4 continents. British, German, and Italian ground troops were in conflict in 1940.
So, to throw in some more candidate dates, one might choose June 10-11, when Italy declared war on England and their soldiers started moving against each other on the ground on a second continent (Africa).
Or how about February, 1941, when the German Africa Corps was dispatched to Africa to save the Italian. Maybe someone can chime in to answer the question as to whether Italy and Germany were officially allies in the war against Great Britain at that time, or technically each pursuing a separate war simultaneously against the same enemy. But certainly they became defacto allies (at least) at this time.
Or how about June, 1941 when Germany attacked Russia? Personally, I’ve never been terribly clear about where Europe ends and Asia begins, so maybe someone else can clarify exactly when this attack finally spilled over onto the Asian mainland, which would then involve a third continent fought over by a common set of foes.
And yet another candidate date – September 27, 1940 – the date that Germany, Italy and Japan formally signed the Tripartite pact which officially made them allies. The problem with this date is it didn’t immediately change the scope or nature of any of the contemporaneous conflict. Germany and Italy were already fighting as Allies, and Japan didn’t didn’t take on Great Britain as an enemy until the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. Still, it was ultimately the political cornerstone of the global nature of the war.
I can see a number of dates. But the British seem to focus on when they entered the war. Of course, us Americans focus on when we entered the war.
Anyway there’s something to be said for 1939 to 1941 as the start, depending on when does a **World **War start. Simply dismissing the American claims of 1941 as parochial & wrong is just as wrong as dismissing the British claims for 1939.
So, I accept 1939 or 1940 or 1941. All have some reasonableness, none are wrong.
Yes, they are, I’m afraid- 1941 is wrong.
No-one tries to argue that World War I didn’t begin until April 6, 1917. Why is it even remotely acceptable - on a board allegedly dedicated to fighting ignorance - to seriously suggest that WWII didn’t start until the Americans got involved?
And what Boyo Jim said about the Sino-Japanese War being a largely regional conflict until December 1941. I believe it’s in the same category as the Spanish Civil War; a contemporary regional conflict that sort of ended up getting folded into grander events. Even though the Spanish Civil War had officially ended six months before the German invasion of Poland; the Germans and the Soviets were there testing some of their stuff out. It’s sort of an overture, if you will, to WWII.
There was a thread a few years back that went on forever arguing that WW2 started in 1932.
Of course, going by the argument of Bryan Ekers above, World War 1 didn’t start until 1917. Who gives a fuck that most of the world was involved but the USA wasn’t?
Yes, true enough. But the problem is that WW2 was really 2 simultaneous wars, starting at 2 different times in 2 different theaters. Both 1937 and 1939 are correct.
Now: It’s pretty funny to criticize History Channel for being inaccurate about *that *when they keep running all those idiotic UFO shows.
Not only the Americans but the Japanese also. IMHO it’s not a World War until all the World Powers are involved. Heck in 1939 the USSR wasn’t even fully involved. Only two of the World Powers- Germany and GB (France and Italy might edge in there). In 1939 only 2 of the 5 great WP were involved, and there was little activity in the Americas or Asia (other than the Japanese in China).
In WWI, the USA wasn’t quite a full World Power yet, or at least many didn’t consider it so. Back then, the World Powers were all European- France, GB, Germany, Austro-Hungary (which actually wasn’t a WP at all, but people thought it was), Russia, and maybe Turkey & Italy, with Japan lined up with the USA as new upstarts.
The Soviets were involved in 1939, as allies of the Germans. They invaded Poland, and took half of it. Shortly afterward, in November 1939, they invaded Finland. That war lasted into March of 1940, when a peace treaty was signed. And within 3 months of that, Germany invaded the Soviet Union.
Well, June 22, 1941, is more like a year and 3 months after March 1940.
When did the Finns began fighting with the Nazis?
:smack:
Finland fought as an ally of the Nazis from 1941 through 1944, and then against the Nazis from late 1944 until VE day.
They became those ‘Commies’ when:
1)They annexed the portion of Poland they conquered in 1939 as well as the Baltic States and the northern portion of East Prussia
2)They installed puppet states in the nations they ‘liberated’ and executed the leaders of the democratic factions in these countries
3)They committed massive crimes against humanity at the end and in the period immediatly after the end of the war. They ethnically cleansed many a region in Eastern Europe; they considered anyone (POW, a kidnapped slave laborer, etc) who has been exposed to Germany or the West in general a criminal and shipped millions to Gulags; they used German POWs and kidnapped German civilians to rebuild cities.
Really the Soviets were no better than the Nazis and they committed exactly the same 4 war crimes that were prosecuted against the Nazi leadership at Nuremberg. While it was important to have them as allies in the defeat of Hitler, the way that we accommodated them and turned a blind eye to their crimes is something of a black eye for the West.
For Eastern Europeans, WWII really didnt end until 1989 and the dissolution of the USSR and their puppet states.
I love the idea of the Brits going “How dare those Yanks say that WWII didn’t start until they were in it, as clearly WWII started as soon as WE were in it!”.