Not so!!
From In Moira, in Khazad-dûm:
Well I think that part of the reason the Dwarves get a bad rap is we never see them in their homes. We get many views on hobbits (The Shire, Bree); Elves (Rivendell, Lorien); and Humans (Bree again, Rohan, Gondor). The only view we see of dwarves are while they are on quests. In my view this sceen is one of the best on views of dwarves. Like all people they just want to live in peace and prosperity. In this case we see the dwarves just about to undertake a dangerous mission that was taking them from their families and homes. They were risking much, with an opportunity to gain much. I have always view the instruments as the natural way of dwarves being put away, much like a US soldier going to a dance club just before being shipped off to Monte Cassino.
Of course the Hobbit was never originally intended to fit into Middle Earth (which at this time just consisted of unpublished versions of the Silmarillian). So several of the characters are not fully realized. Gandalf is certainly the chief of these. A wizard meant a lot less here than it did later on. Quite a few changes were made after the first print run to get it to fit in with the later books. In this chapter for example Gandalf originally asked for a tomato rather than a pickle. The change was made to make the book seem older as tomatoes are a new world plant. However some anachronisms were still left in, such as Bilbo sounding like a train leaving a tunnel.
As far as why Gandalf choose Bilbo. Tolkien wrote several explanations one of which was supposed to be in Return of the King (RotK) but was edited out. Evidently Gandalf had know Bilbo as a youngster fairly well. And at that age Bilbo had been much more ‘Tookish.’ Gandalf felt that the Shire would soon need leaders with some ‘foreign’ experience and thought of Bilbo. Of course Bilbo had settled down quite a bit from his irresponsible youth and become fat and lazy. Of course he almost gets rejected from the outset by Thorin but Galdalf obviously convinces the old dwarf otherwise. At least part of the choice of Bilbo is chance or insight. Gandalf later admits so himself. So not an ability to see the future per say, more of an ability to sense possibilities.
Hmmm. Interesting thought, Bartman. There are definitely hints throughout the trilogy that Gandalf was aware that the time was coming for him to leave Middle Earth. It would make sense for him to start raising up some good leaders here and there. Of course, I doubt that Tolkein was thinking that far ahead when he wrote the first chapter of the Hobbit, but still.
I’ve just finished the first chapter. In the last few pages Gandalf and Thorin talk about the dwarves’ loss of the Lonely Mountain to Smaug, and the diaspora which followed.
It made me think of the Jews. I’m sure Tolkien didn’t intend this allegory, but it is an interesting parallel. Hebrews = dwarves, Romans = Smaug. Like the Jews, the dwarves were cast out of their home and its former glory and were dispersed throughout the world, getting by however they could and hoping for the day they could go back and reclaim their rightful home. The allegory probably breaks down at that point, though. Unless the Battle of Five Armies = World War II, and since the book came out in 1937, that’s not likely.
Considering the Professor’s attitude towards allegory, I’m quite sure that the connection is mainly coincidental.
However, I’ve always noted the similarity between Dwarvish and Hebrew - in consonants, cadence and word structure. The phrase Khazad-Dum, for instance, sounds suspiciously like "Gamad Kadum, or “Ancient Dwarf”. Tolkien knew Hebrew, and while most of his linguistics were based on the Anglo-Saxon, I wouldn’t be surprised if he threw a bit of his other knowlege into the story.
Plus, you have the beards. And the gold smithing.
Right you are Bartman, though it is a bit strong to say the dwarves got a bad rap–remember, they were created by someone (can’t remember who) with hubris and good intentions but without proper authority. They are the most secretive and private of the peoples–no one ever sees their women or children either.
This is very interesting. I have always thought of the orcs as nazis. From a moral and plot perspective, it is very convenient to have creatures thoroughly evil, who can be slaughtered without compunction and without nagging concerns about the justness of their deaths. If only the nazis had been subhuman so that they too could have been proper objects for heroes to slay in great heaps–alas, the real world isn’t quite like Middle Earth.
In the FoTR chapter “Many Meetings” we read: “As Elrond entered and went towards the seat prepared for him, elvish minstrels began to make sweet music.” A few pages later, “But those near him were silent, intent upon the music of the voices and the instruments…” It doesn’t say what instruments. But they are there.
Then in the RoTK chapter “The Field of Cormallen” it says: “…and horns and trumpets sang…”.
So this is why I said practically the only mention of musical instruments in Middle-Earth. I thought I remembered the trumpets.
The maker of the Dwarves was Aulë the Smith; he made them secretly and hid them from the knowledge of the other Valar until he awoke their forms. Even though they were not fair as the Eldar, eventually they were accepted as “children of Ilúvatar.”
I’m in! I’ve read The Hobbit and the trilogy maybe 30 or 35 times (when I’m bored I go back to the classics!)… the Sillmarillion bored the SNOT out of me, and continues to do so to this day! IE: I read the first few pages…
My only input so far: IMO, The Hobbit was written as a lark… then JRRT started thinking about it, and came up with the rest if TLR. So, to compare, or even group! The Hobbit with TLR is foolish… there are discrepancies that are the result of writing a novel off-hand and then pondring it for a while and then writing a more in-depth series of novels later…
I have a BA in English! You cannot argue with me! Don’t try it! (I’m also drunk right now… but that’s incidental…) I know all! I see alll! I understand all!
UM… all I can say about the previous post is what I said before… IE: I’m drunk right now… Sorry!
But I stand behing almost evrything!
I’ll pick and choose later which things I stand behind…
But I’ve read tghe series MANY times… at least 30 or so…
Maybe Ill just stagger off to bed now…
Aulë made the dwarfs, but he didn’t awake them - i.e. - give them the power to act independently. He made them without the permission of Ilúvatar, and when Ilúvatar rebuked him for doing so, Aulë went to destroy them. Ilúvatar then gave the dwarfs independent capabilities to reward Aulë for his submission - all rather reminiscent of Abraham’s sacrifice of Isaac.
I’ve just read the second, short chapter, wherein Bilbo is rushed out of his house without his hat or pocket-handkerchiefs to meet the dwarves and embark on his Adventure.
By the end of the chapter they’ve met Bert, Tom and Bill, the three trolls, escaped their clutches as they turned to stone, and taken their plunder. This is an important moment in the story, as it’s Bilbo’s first brush with death, but also because it introduces Sting, the large dagger/short sword used by Bilbo and later Frodo throughout the rest of the stories.
I couldn’t help but notice the dialogue used by the trolls. I think it’s Cockney, but anyway it’s quite a different dialect from that used by Bilbo and the dwarves. It’s decidedly working-class speech, with none of the “Good mornings” or “At your service”'s we heard at the Unexpected Party.
Is this classism on Tolkien’s part? Well-spoken = good, semi-literate = evil? I shall pay close attention to the speech of the other characters we’re introduced to.
Discuss.
The impressive thing, though, is how Tolkien managed to work TH into the greater Middle-earth mythos in spite of the inconsistencies. The classic exacple, of course, is what mariamp called the “Important Scene” (Bilbo’s encounter with Gollum) which had to be revised in order for it to be consistent with LotR’s take on the nature of the Ring. But it wasn’t just a simple retcon – Tolkien (via his literary role as “translator”) actually made this inconsistency a part of the larger story. The copy of TH that I have has a preface to this effect – I assume more recent editions retain it?
As for the accents – working-class/rural-type accents aren’t used exclusively for evil characters. Orcs aren’t particularly articulate, either (though the orcs of LotR don’t speak the same way the trolls in TH do), but many of the bit-player Hobbits in LotR have distinctly non-upper-class accents, as does Sam Gamgee. Of course, the differences in speech are subtler in LotR, leading to the (IMO unfounded) charge by some critics of Tolkien that all his characters speak alike.
In any case, Bilbo is a “bourgeois” hobbit (yes, I’ve read Author of the Century; why do you ask? ;)) and most non-human, non-hobbit characters do sound rather posh… 
He did. Khuzdul (the Dwarvish language) was quite deliberately modelled by Tolkien on Hebrew, which he knew.
Smeghead, I wasn’t refering to Gandalf leaving but instead to the upcoming troubles. If I wasn’t trying to avoid spoilers, I would mention the fact the Gandalf proved correct on this, as the ones who lead the Shire out of its problems were all influenced by Bilbo rather than by local custom (in the Scouring of the Shire). As it is I won’t mention it to avoid confusing those who may actually be reading the books for the first time.
Fiver as far as classism is involved I would think not. I have read quite a few essays on Tolkien’s supposed racism etc. and they genreally fall far short of the mark. JRR seems to have actually be fairly free from such sentiments especially for a man of his time. That said I think the language of Burt et al. is simply useing a different dialect for comedic affect. Obviously he could have choosen from many. However any step from the more correct English being used by the primaries would probably had the same result. So I don’t view this as classism any more than when say the Pythons did it in Flying Circus.
Now for a couple of new observations. It has always seemed to me that Tolkien at this point is gradually taking us away from a more recognizable place to one more removed or remote. The first chapter and part of the second seems to take place in mid 19th century England. The characters eat foods which are reminiscant of the period. There are references to clocks, mantleplaces, steam engines, pocket-handkerchiefs, steam kettles, etc. As we progress in the story we seem to step back in time as much as through a physical space. We approach something that is much older. I have always felt that this was a great method to bring young children into the story. Start at a place that is fairly familiar and work to the less familiar. It no doubt does not work as well now as it did then. But for the ‘gentry’ children who were likely to be reading his book when it was written Bilbo must have appeared to be a very familiar fellow. What do you all think?
I am not reading the Hobbit right now but I have read TH, LotR and the Sillmarillion. I have read TH and LotR many times.
For those of you who think The Hobbit is lightweight compared to The Lord of the Rings, I say POOH ON YOU! I disagree wholeheartedly. As for the inconsistancies between the two, I disagree as well. JRRT wrote much of the Sillmarillion before he wrote The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. So he definitely had a base story to start from.
As for the differences in style of the two books, I think that is one of the best things about them. The Hobbit is written from an entirely different perspective from the Lord of the Rings. The same world is being described, it is just being seen by someone (Bilbo) who knows less about the world he is traveling in.
I wish I could express this more clearly, I feel like I am not really explaining myself. I am tired but I wanted to respond to the Hobbit-Bashers among the posters of the SDMB. I’ll come back to my arguments (not that I really want to debate this, but I do want to be able to explain why the Hobbit kicks ass.)
Indeed, but it’s rather well-documented that Tolkien didn’t initially intend for TH to take place in the world of the Silm, although he threw in a few proper names (Elrond, Gondolin). This isn’t any particular slight on TH, though.
Bartman, I agree, mostly – hobbits are something of an “in-between” people in Middle-earth. They seem far more “modern” than the rest of ME, but to the reader, they also recall an idealized past…so they bridge the gap between the everyday world and the epic world. (I’m indebted to Tom Shippey’s recent book on JRRT for much of this point – I highly recommend it for anyone interested in literary criticism of Tolkien. It’s called J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century.)
When my kids were younger, I read The Hobbit aloud to them as a bedtime story. When I did the mock-British voices for the trolls, you should have heard them laugh! It was a hit. But even though the three stone trolls make a return appearance in The Fellowship of the Ring, the other trolls in LoTR who are still ambulatory do not speak, and they are not comic, they are very, very horrifying. The Olog-Hai. Brrr.
In that chapter, Fiver (are you a Richard Adams fan, by the way?) you get one of the little glimpses of the enormous depth to the backstory. From the troll cache they retrieve magical Elven swords of Gondolin. You can’t know what major resonance the name of Gondolin holds until you read LoTR, and you won’t get the full story until The Silmarillion. Gondolin was the greatest Elven city of the Elder Days, in the region of Beleriand which sank beneath the sea several thousand years before the Lord of the Rings takes place. To get a sword from Gondolin is heav-v-y. That’s why Sting kicked butt everyplace.
I just came from reading the Silmarillion directly into reading the Hobbit. The change in tone is almost excruciating. Think fingernails across chalkboard.
Plus the inconsistencies are driving me nuts. At one point in the Hobbit, the narrator refers to the lands Bilbo is travelling through as being far from the King. wtf?
There are some neat consistencies, though. Mentioning Gondolin as a source of the swords, for example.
As it is, I keep falling back on the “being narrated by Bilbo” dodge a lot to keep from going insane.
Good feedback regarding the working-class accents, everybody. I guess I jumped too quickly to a conclusion regarding the trolls. I will be paying close attention to the accents as I read the rest of the book.
Akatsukami, I don’t think we can conclude Tolkien meant the dwarves to be allegorical Jews just because he modeled the dwarvish language on Hebrew. It does make the parallels more intriguing, though, doesn’t it?
And Bartman, really good call about the passage from Hobbiton to Rivendell taking the reader “backward in time.” Tolkien even describes how the roads get rougher…here, I’ll tell it in Tolkien’s own words:
This is the first part of the adventure that Bilbo doesn’t enjoy, where he realizes adventuring is more than just a pony ride. He’s in feudal, Dark Ages Europe now, effectively.
That famous article about Tolkien on Salon.com discussed the sense of melancholy that pervades Lord of the Rings. I think we’re seeing some of it here in The Hobbit too.
What about the toy instruments mentioned in connection with the Long Expected Party? Well OK, toy instruments aren’t the same as real ones, but one would think they have real instruments as antecedents.