The Hobbit - a few questions....

Cafe Society
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Finally finished reading the Hobbit - Good book - if not a little “wordy” in places…

This is my first book by Tolkien to finish - I remember trying to read them in High School but Life and Zelazny got in the way.

Is the style that Tolkien uses in this book prevelant in the others? The “but Bilbo didn’t know X as we are about to see” or “but they win, and i’ll tell you how in a few pages” ?

Who is actually telling this story? I thought it was supposed to be Bilbo’s book (that he penned) but there is very little first person, and mostly told as an “oral tradition” (alot of times it felt as if it was designed to be read aloud to an audience)?

Is there any more information on the Necromancer that Gandalf went off to destroy? He was mentioned a couple of times in the book, I assume there must be a story elsewhere about that.

The Eagles that helped the party this time - same eagle that helped Gandalf escape Sauroman? Same group of Eagles that helped at the end of the “Return of the King”?

I havent read the rings yet - they are next - I have seen the movies.

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No. In LOTR, JRRT is writing in a different style for a different audience.

It was written as a children’s book, and and JRRT uses the 'knowledgeable authoritarian" narrator’s voice.

Yes, that’s mainly what LOTR is about.

Yes, the Eagles of Manwë.

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The necromancer is actually Sauron.

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Yes, the writing style is different. THE HOBBIT was a children’s story, and so has (in addition to all-knowing narrator) very cute little asides, such as the invention of golf. The first few chapters of LORD OF THE RINGS have similar elements, but then he grows more serious as he realized he was writing for adults; thus the Tom Bombadil chapter, the cute stuff about Bilbo’s birthday gifts to friends and relatives, etc. are still very much in a “children’s book” mode. Chapter 2 (Shadow of the Past) introduce the darker and more adult themes, and after Bombadil, the children’s story is pretty much gone.

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If you consider The Hobbit “wordy”, Lord Of The Rings may not be for you, and you really should stay away from The Silmarillion…

For me, LOTR, followed by TH, was my first introduction to the world of fantasy literature when I read it as a teenager. For that reason, I could overlook its flaws, and whenever I read any other fantasy novel after that I would recognize its debt to Tolkien. When you read Tolkien after already being familiar with later fantasy works, the experience might be quite different.

No, that’s quite specific to TH, which was intended as a children’s book. In fact, I think I read somewhere that Tolkien himself got fed up with that particular literary technique as he was writing the book, and removed most instances of it, but a few stayed in.

TH and LOTR were intended as a deliberate creation of a mythology for Great-Britain, along the same lines as the Greek and Teutonic mythologies. You could think of the books as having been written by a literary researcher, perhaps Tolkien himself, who had access to the various materials written during and after the time in which the story takes place, and who sifted through all that material, extracted a coherent story from it, and presented it in a form suitable for modern readers.

That is definitely Tolkien’s greatest strength: his ability to evoke the feeling that Middle-Earth is this enormous, real, complex world containing so many different things, some of which play a major role in the story while others are mentioned only briefly – and undoubtedly, a thousand other things which exist but do not get mentioned in the books because they are not relevant to the story.

I’m pretty sure that the Necromancer was supposed to be (or was later retconned to be) an early incarnation of Sauron, who had not gained his full strength yet. I believe this is mentioned in The Silmarillion, but it’s not obvious from LOTR. When Tolkien was writing TH, the Necromancer was nothing more than a minor villain, an excuse for Gandalf to let Bilbo and the Dwarfs fend for themselves for a while, and a way to give some extra depth to the fantasy world.

Maybe not the same individual birds, but probably the same group I would think.

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That little nugget took me years to figure out on my own. I don’t think reading LOTR caused the light to go on above my head, either, I think it was the Silmarilion.

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The original edition of The Hobbit had less mention of the ring and the Necromancer. Tolkien jazzed them up a little for subsequent editions to tie the story more closely with LOTR, which was written after The Hobbit.

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agreed to the answers posted already. Tho LOTR is indeed wordy I hope you stick with it, as I (along with many others) believe it’s well worth it. Do let us know how you like it - even as you’re going along. Always fun to experience the book again with a “virgin”.

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LOTR is to The Hobbit what a fine, premium wine is to Baby Duck. What a Rolls Royce is to a Kia. What B. B. King is to The Shags.

I am, she said proudly, a Lord of the Rings geek. Have been since 1966, and see no end to it, nor do I seek one.

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Utúlie’n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie’n aurë! :slight_smile:

Favorite Vala? (canon & non-canon) Mine’s Namo and Omar-Amillo

Most disliked son of Fëanor? Caranthir, definitely!

Coolest elven ring? Narya!

Least favorite house of Dwarves? Broadbeams! (Stiffbeards are a close second!)

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Oh dear. I fear my Uber-geekiness re: JRRT may have caused vison to swoon! Or something…

Búbhosh búrzum ishi bagronk!

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And Balrogs DO have wings! :smiley:

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I tend to agree, because of JRRT’s stated dislike for allegory.

Also because wings are cool.

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My personal theory is that the Balrog is a limited shape-shifter. The Balrog was originally the same sort of being as Sauron, who was a great shape-shifter in his prime. The Balrog is a creature of shadow and flame, and the shadow spreads out “like wings” (as described in the relevant passage of LOTR). Why would the Balrog choose to have wings at that particular moment if it wasn’t going to fly? Perhaps to make himself look bigger and scarier, like a cobra’s flared hood or a cat’s raised fur.

Also because wings are cool.

Ah, but you see, this is because the first edition of The Hobbit was based on the testimony of Bilbo Baggins, who, perhaps due to the influence of the Ring, lied. Tolkien was able to correct later editions due to his access to more reliable sources.

Seriously. This is how it’s explained in the front matter of LOTR. Comic book writers have nothing on him when it comes to creative retcons.

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simster, Welcome to Middle-Earth!

I always believed they had wings and I love Tom Bombadil, Goldberry & Old Man Willow.

Fingon’s cry before battle, “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!” Why did you mention it though?

Aulë and Yavanna for me.

The Ring of Fire on the hand of the Wisest. Most astute of Cirdan to realize where it could do the most good.

Do Petty Dwarves count as a house? Not really I guess. As usual, you are one step beyond even my Tolkien geekitude. All hail the master.

Jim

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I am going to resist being drawn into a thread where the Balrog’s wings/notwings are even mentioned. 9 years of fighting and feuding and fawning over Tolkien on the internet has worn me out.

I remember the shock of disgusted horror I felt when some pot-smoking hippy who called himself Gandalf announced to me, in tones of patronizing certainty: “Oh, Aragorn is the REAL hero of LOTR, you know. . .” Rising in offended hauteur, I drew my robes about me, stepped daintily through the squalor that his wife Arwen thought of as housekeeping, tried to dodge the goatshit on the path, and left, never to return.

sigh

I still post at 2 LOTR websites, and will keep my venom and my geekiness for them.

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Oh, and to add to vison’s comment about Balrog wings, elves have pointy ears.

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Thanks - I half suspected that the Necromancer was Sauron - but only because, well, no reason really - just did.

What I really want to know is - is that particular ‘story’ - of Gandalf and the White Council (?) defeating him written down anywhere? I assume at that point, Sauroman was a member of said council… is it here that he perhaps falls prey to Sauron?

While I said earlier that he (Tolkien) was rather wordy - it was only becuase many times I wanted to get to the next page - and sometimes because I thought what I had just read was rather pointless - these were few and far between - What can be said is that I had no trouble at all imagining exactly what it was that Tolkien intended in the scene.

I could hear Gollum sneaking up on Bilbo - etc - perhaps thanks to the movies, but I could ‘hear’ the voices of the charectors - this is something I have missed for a long, long time.

I can also see why it all set up such a wonderful world for Role Playing - something I hadn’t considered before - laying out the maps/directions/dangers so well, it did.

It’s been a long time since I’ve set and read a book, in the old days I used to read a ‘novel a night’ - but what I enjoyed was a book I could read in such a time period - sequels and sets of books were fine - but I really liked the shorter ones that had a good pacing to them.

I’ll likely start Fellowship soon enough…

Oh, and Wings are cool… regaurdless rather (or not) that Balrogs have them - of that, I have no opinion - yet.

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Yavanna’s not non-canon!

Well, JRRT considered Cirdan to be the wisest elf in middle-earth.

vison, we don’t pay much mind here to the wings/no wings debates here. We ponder the meaning behind facts like Gwerlum was an early name that JRRT gave to Ungoliant, and whether or not JRRT made an error in not sticking with making Valinorean the default tongue of Valinor, instead of Quenya. :cool:

OK, well, I ponder that stuff. Otherwise I’d be left to think about stuff I gotta do at work. :smiley:

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It pretty much exists only in the appendices to ROTK. Not really expanded upon much. JRRT did that a lot. He had created a world covering something like 30,000 years, so left a lot unfinished, dagnabbit!

[nitpick]And it’s Saruman, not Sauroman. [/nitpick]