Just got through reading Lord of the Rings for the 7th time or so, and i’m wondering something:
-=spoiler=-(although i’m sure you’ve all read it)
at the end, i believe its when frodo goes to leave for the havens, it shows elrond, galadriel, and gandalf with the 3 elven rings of power. question: is gandalf an elf? not according to the silmarillion. if not, why does he have an elven ring? is he just such a badass that no one will tell him different? what gives?
i realize this question automatically makes me a bona fide geek, so no need to point that out.
Another bona fide geek here, but one with bad memory. Somewhere (Book of Lost Tales?), there is a short piece about Gandalf being given the ring by, um, by the head elf at the Havens. He said something along the lines that he could tell Gandalf was going to need it.
Gandalf was definitely not an elf; he was a Maiar, sort of a lower order of the Valar.
The three Elven rings were originally held by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan. Gil-Galad gave his ring to Elrond. Cirdan, being the most far-sighted of the all, gave his to Gandalf when Gandalf came to the Grey Havens on his first trip to Middle Earth.
From “The Tale of the Years” in the appendices in the back of the “Lord of the Rings”:
“Take this ring, Master”, he said, “for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.”
And I just finished reading it again (for about the sixth or seventh time) as well. A great book.
Cirdan the Shipbuilder gave it to him. The three started out belonging to Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Cirdan. Gil-Galad gave his to Elrond. Details in Appendix B of “The Return of the King”. Gandalf was one of the Istari, the wizards who turned up at the beginning of the third age, the implication being that the Valar sent them in to trouble-shoot. That being the case, I wonder at their lousy track record - Saruman turned evil, Radagast turned up only in a bit part, and the other two weren’t mentioned as far as I can recall. Gandalf was the only one who seemed to do anything positive.
You think you’re a geek? I just happen to have the LoTR in my office. I quickly thumbed through the appendices, because I thought there was a brief history of the various rings in there, but no joy. IIRC, in one of Tolkien’s books there is a brief note that Gandalf was given his ring by some Elven lord or another.
No, the G-man isn’t an elf. I believe he is a Maiar, the subsidiary Valar. He was likely given the ring because by the Third Age, the elves weren’t terribly active, and he wouuld actually be able to put it to good use.
That being the case, I wonder at their lousy track record - Saruman turned evil, Radagast turned up only in a bit part, and the other two weren’t mentioned as far as I can recall. Gandalf was the only one who seemed to do anything positive.**
I would dispute this. Yes, Saruman turned evil, but only after long study of the One Ring and its history. He was leader of the White Council only because Gandalf refused it.
As for the two other of the Istari, they went east and I believe, flushed out Sauron from wherever he was hiding/waiting/healing. While it’s not stated specifically like that, you get the implications from the notes in the Appendices.
While Radagast’s part was small, it was important is Gandalf’s rescue from Saruman’s trap.
Now it’s my turn to show my Tolkien geek badge. I have none of the books within reach, but I think I can remember these details.
In Valinor, Gandalf was known as Olorin (there are accents in this name, but I’m not going to bother putting them in), and was considered the wisest of the Maiar. Faramir, in The Two Towers, quotes something he once heard the wizard say, when Frodo and Sam aren’t sure if they’re talking about the same guy (Faramir knew Gandalf by the name Mithrandir.) Many are my names in many places.
Mithrandir to the Elves,
Tharkun to the Dwarves.
Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten,
To the North Gandalf,
To the South Incanus,
To the East I go not.
Cirdan the Shipwright, who held Narya, the Ring of Fire, was very possibly the oldest being East of Belargaer, the Sundering Sea.(Unless you count Sauron, who technically existed before Arda was made.) He had never gone to Valinor, so he was counted amond the Dark Elves, but he is mentioned in the Silmarillion as travelling among the Teleri on their first trip towards the West. He was probably among the Firstborn, having awakened with the first elves on the shores of Cuvenien, in the far East. He was one of the few surviving elves to have met the Valar face to face (though only those few that came to Middle Earth in the early days to meet with the Firstborn.) Another of these was Galadriel, though she had been to Valinor and met all the Valar. (Galadriel, however, was of the elves’ third generation, not of the Firstborn.)
Anyway, Cirdan, being as much as a few hundred thousand years old at the time Galdalf sailed into the Havens (time wasn’t counted before the Sun and Moon were made, so it’s hard to say for sure how old he was), was surely smart enough to recognize that this was going to be the indirect savior of Middle Earth.
So, who’s the Tolkein geek now? Those of you with access to the books, feel free to correct my mistakes (assuming, of course, that anyone’s still awake after reading this).
Gandalf has the elf-ring with a red stone, the ring of fire. And most of the magic that Gandalf does is connected with fire and light (lighting up his staff, creating fireworks for hobbit celebrations, etc.)
Elrond has the elf-ring with a blue stone, and we don’t see much of his “magic” but what we do see deals with water – he floods the river to wash away the Nazgul to save Frodo, for instance.
Galadriel has the elf-ring with the white stone of adamant; again, we don’t see much of her power, but her magic seems to be largely connected with stars (at least visually).
… all of which goes to say that Tolkien had a very, very intricate and well-thought-out world, that is internally consistent. Modern writers of fantasy who turn out drivel in undending series should take note.
ok, thanks for your replies. i’ll take it that ‘elven’ rings means they were made by elves, not that they have to be worn by them. now that we’ve established we’re all geeks here, do balrogs have wings? i know it has nothing to do with the OP, but there’s nothing wrong with keeping the geekiness in one thread, says I.
I would like to have a reference book for answering questions of Tolkien’s work, but I don’t want to have to read Silmarillion or page through it. Can anyone recommend anything?
I’m pretty sure a human or a dwarf would have been unable to get much use out of one of the elven rings (which were indeed made by an elf: Celebrimbor, grandson of Feanor(who made the Silmarils)). But since Olorin was of the Wise, he was able to use it.
Balrogs are never fully described, as far as I know. However, if they have wings, they can’t use them to fly. When Gandalf broke the bridge in Moria, the Balrog fell into the abyss with him. If it could fly, that would have been a useless tactic. Other battles against Balrogs seemed to be essentially on foot, not in the air.
that’s what i thought, and i think having wings just ups the intimidation factor, for me anyway. i just ask because there seems to be a lot of people out there who are pretty adamant about them not having wings.
In the early 80’s, I loved the New Tolkien Companion, by Tyler. Sort of an encyclopedia of Tolkien facts. I see that he has come out with two editions since then (most recently in '95), so I guess he’s incorporated a lot of stuff from the various Lost and Unfinished Tales books. I’ll have to get a copy. Has anyone leafed through it?
Well, according to JeffB above, Gandalf is also one of the Maiar (though I’m not sure where he got that information), which would make him as old as Sauron.
As far as Radagast, my thought is that he was fighting Sauron in the animal/plant kingdom (e.g. helping defeat bad spiders etc…) and that’s why we don’t hear much of him. Of course you would expect then that he would be a great friend of the Ents which is a flaw in my theory.
A fun read for Tolkien fans is his Letters, published by Houghton Mifflin. There’s a lot of esoteric questions answered here about the nature of Wizards, Dwarves and Elves; alternate Middle-Earth history, etc., and very readable.
Certainly, Sauron and Gandalf were both Maiar, which makes them both older than Arda. But I was speaking of when the Istari first arrived, so Gandalf wasn’t in Middle Earth before then.
I’m a little shaky on this, but I think that Radagast only dealt with animals, and not plants. As such, the Ents didn’t like him much. They liked him better than they did Saruman, of course.
Quit reminding me of stuff! Which reminds me, didn’t pippin (or someone relating a story to pippin, or something) see an Ent or possibly an entwife in the shire?