Don’t want to get ahead of you if you haven’t finished, but I don’t think it’s much of a spoiler to say that a raven shows up in a subsequent chapter who is 150 years old and is only the son of a raven alive at the time Smaug arrived. Also, somewhere (can’t find it) Gandalf talks about how it’s been 100 years since Throin’s father went away and got captured by the Necromancer. So, yeah, we’re talking about biblical-type lifespans for dwarves.
Dwarves aren’t immortal like elves, but they do have very long lifespans. Although I don’t know if their typical lifespan is mentioned anywhere, Tolkien’s various chronologies show dwarves living hundreds of years.
The thrush wasn’t the only cue, either. Just before the bird started slamming that hapless snail against the rock, Bilbo noticed that the sun and the moon were in the sky at the same time–one of the characteristics of Durin’s Day (a dwarven New Year’s Day on which both the sun and the moon are seen in the sky at the same time, IIRC).
According to my handy-dandy “The Complete Guide to Middle Earth”, Dain II Ironfoot, Thorin’s cousin, lived 252 years, and died in battle at that age! Thorin himself was 195 at the time of “The Hobbit”. So the dwarves seem to be easily capable of living active lives well into their third century.
What a great chapter! Tolkien drew me in completely and made me share Bilbo’s wonder and fear as he gazed at the immense horde of Thror and the immense awfulness of Smaug.
Over the last few chapters I’ve grown increasingly annoyed with the dwarves, and this continued here. Bilbo returned from his first trip down the passage with the two-handled cup, then holds council with the dwarves:
Hey, no shit! Two hundred years earlier Smaug single-handedly routed the Valley of Dale and the whole Kingdom Under the Mountain, and now thirteen mostly aged dwarves had returned to reclaim it, but apparently gave no thought at all to the rather large matter of how to get rid of the dragon.
They brought no magic poison, no lure to get him out of the Mountain…they didn’t even know about the Side Door until their quest was well underway. Were they planning to stroll in through the River entrance and politely ask Smaug to drop dead for them? These Type B adventurers deserve no treasure!
Not just the dwarves, everyone seems to live a very long time. Bilbo himself lives well into his second century. Granted the ring helped, but no one thinks too much of his age. Well preserved is what they called him, not a inhuman (inhobbit?) freak of nature. In fact there are indications that hobbits have an expected lifespan of about 1.5 times that of modern men. In addition you have the goblins/orcs. They seem to either be immortal after the fashion of elves or at least very long lived, depending on how you interpret the various quotes. Even men, as long as they have the right ancestors, are capable of living hundreds of years. It seems everyone has extra-long lives. No wonder no one seems to mention/notice the apparent immortality of Gandalf and the other wizards.
I agree fiver, after all it doesn’t do to leave a live dragon out of your plans. Which brings up the question, was Thorin insane? There seems to be a pattern here. If you look at his father and grandfather, both seemed to have lost their marbles late in life. All three go on quests to restore the family fortune. All three are acompanied by a small group of loyal attendants. One lost his head (literaly) in Moria. The other ends up a gibbering wreck in the dungeons of the Necromancer. We of course have yet to see what happens to Thorin. For the first two their ring seems to have something to do with it. Could early exposure to the family ring be the cause of such a foolhardy attempt by Thorin? Why the pattern of late life quests?
I agree–this chapter is one of my favorites. Not only do we get “the splendour, the lust, the glory” of the treasure, we get the riddling talk with the dragon.
The dwarves have feet of clay:
“The most that can be said for dwarves is this: they intended [and are they without fault even on this score when it comes time to pay up?] to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services…There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much.”
Bilbo has feet of clay–he gave away to the dragon the fact that Esgaroth had aided them. Even Gandalf is flawed in a way–he had bad info on the mountain passes and forest paths, and he had no solution when treed by the wargs and orcs. An author who can create something heroic out of flawed materials is an author I will read. If you’re perfect, you’re not real.
Another neat little thing: Bilbo is said to fight his biggest battle in the tunnel alone in the dark. But after a while, he goes on. The abbreviated quality of this bit, Tolkien’s resistance of the temptation to soliloquy, the restraint, is admirable.
Well, I think “feet of clay” is maybe an overstatement for some of your examples. It is no failure of heroism that a hero can’t foresee every possible consequence of all of his actions, and for that reason I think we may excuse Gandalf for the tree incident and Bilbo for his barrels slip.
But the dwarves are actively foolish, and hard-headed (in a bad way). They are not heroes, indeed. Nice quote to include, Humble Servant.
You know…I hesitate to bring this up, but here we go…the passage you quote, and other parts of this narrative, paint the dwarves as being very much like the typical European stereotype of Jews.
We’ve discussed Hebrew/dwarves parallels earlier in this thread. I doubt very much this was intentional, but it is an unfortunate coincidence.
The orcs are Nazi-like, but since they hate everyone and don’t particularly single out the dwarves, I don’t perceive a strong dwarf-Jewish connection.
To the extent that “feet of clay” implies fatal flaws, I agree it is too strong and retract; I would have said “display human fraility” but that sounded wrong because they’re not human.
I don’t think Thorin or his grandfather were insane, and his father was only driven to insanity by torture. Dwarves are very clannish, and the entourage thing seems fairly typical–cousins go to war in support of cousins with no questions. As for adventuring in their later years, I believe even Bilbo questions his own sanity on that point; but if they had just bought miatas, we wouldn’t have a story.
OK I’m home now and have dug up some references. All of this is from Apendix A at the end of Lord of the Rings.
Now ignoring the direct comment that he was crazed. Walking unescorted into Moria is Orc-assisted suicide. He does not seem to be in his right mind and Tolkien assigns blame to the ring.
He of course does not reach the dragon, but is waylayed by the Necromancer. However the description is very similar. In the end his obsession gets him killed.
Now let’s look at Thorin
Once again the heir of Durin becomes obsessive-compulsive. In the end he takes off with 13 companions to avenge himself and his family on his dragon. A certain madness seems to come over his family which cannot be explained away as simple mid-life crisis. So the question remains, was Thorin insane or was he on the way there? And does that explain some of his actions?
I don’t know personally. But I think it is an interesting concept to explore.
Well, only men of Numenorean blood have extended lifespans, and that is because they are descendents of Elros, the brother of Elrond. Elros and Elrond were half elves, but were forced to chose between the fate of the elves and the fate of men. Elros chose to live with men, while Elrond chose the elves. So someone like Aragorn can live for 200 years, but the average run of men has the same lifespan as present day humans.
Now, the longevity of hobbits. It is true that hobbits seem to live about 1.5 times the age of humans. The oldest hobbit on record was Gerontius Took, who lived to 133, until his record is beaten by…well, we’re still reading “The Hobbit” here, so I won’t say. And hobbits only attain their full majority at 33, until then they are “tweens”, a sort of extended adolescence.
You know, the quotes from Tolkien’s Letters’ and from Lord of the Rings are interesting, but I think we should stay focused on the primary text as much as possible. The Hobbit stands very well on its own.
Fair enough. I was just bringing in the Appendix quotes to establish the pattern for my theory. I have read enough on Middle Earth that I can’t seem to keep the larger story arc out of my musings when reading The Hobbit.
The dwarves continue their pussy-streak here as Bilbo has to venture down into the darkness all by himself, and can find only Balin even to go partway with him.
In “Not at Home” there’s “Not a lot happening,” but of course this chapter merely fills in the dwarves’ account of time while Smaug was off toasting Esgaroth and getting hisself killed.
Oops, I’ve gotten ahead. Sorry.
This chapter is the building crescendo to the “money shot” of the Battle of Five Armies. It’s kind of eerie to discuss this chapter about the death of a town in light of recent events, but let’s stay focused and remember this is fiction.
Tolkien’s monarchialism and anti-democratic attitudes are in full flower here. The elected Master of Esgaroth gets out of town at the first sign of trouble, while the day is saved by “Bard, grim-voiced and grim-faced,” who is a direct descendant of the former King of Dale.
Being a noble descendant allows him, by definition, to understand the tidings brought by the thrush. And to act on them. This guy talks to his arrows, people!
It seems a little unlikely that a single arrow, however well-shot, could have brought down a monster as fearsome as Smaug, but on the other hand I couldn’t think of any more credible way to take him out.
Another thing in this chapter continues to puzzle me:
Uh, Smaug can fly. What difference could it make whether the bridge is out?
He can fly? I don’t remember reading that. Although If can point out where I will stand corrected.
Isn’t Smaug some kind of Early hobbit who was deformed by the ring
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I have not contributed to this before but have followed the discussion avidly. Thanks for starting this thread, it’s fascinating.
Gartog:
Uh, no. You’re thinking of Gollum. Smaug is the dragon who stole the Lonely Mountain from the dwarves, and most certainly can fly.
You’ve been reading along, haven’t you?
Sorry, you are right not quite sure what I was thinking
Smaug & Smeagol(sp) almost sound the same I think this is what confused me.
Yes I have been reading along. Please forgive me for this dumb question.
It is difficult to eat people and gather treasure from the air. At some point he needs to land. Hmm. Another parallel to current events, since we have realized that Air Power alone will not work in this War On Terrorism.
No, you can’t run a war-time army by committee or democracy. There’s an old saying that we want a bit of arrogant self-confidence in our surgeons, fighter pilots and relief pitchers, but I happen to agree with the Master that I do not necessarily want to be ruled by a fighting man in peacetime–I also don’t want to be ruled by a petty, self-interested, jealous fool or a stupid mob. There are other choices, of course, such as a system of checks and balances which separates military and civil power and judicially preserves minority rights from majority idiocy.
I also admit to a sensitivity to businessman bashing such as the Master receives here. He deserves to be bashed, of course, as the self-serving politician he is, but all businessmen are not the same.
I love TH, but this read of this chapter left me flat–the simplistic cliches leapt out.
Quickly reprising the Thorin sanity issue–I disagree that there is any so-to-speak genetic diposition to insanity in his family, except to the extent that all dwarves have gold lust. Insanity caused by the ring or torture is non-organic. Thorin is not insane. Hey, as Fiver points out, Bard talks to his arrow–are we saying he’s insane too? At least he doesn’t name it like everyone else names their swords. Anyone want to explain the prevalency of magical objects as anything other than the furniture of an imagined world?