The Hobbit - children's book? Random ruminations ahoy!

[Ogre]

I just finished reading The Hobbit for the 1167th time. I am aware that a lot of people consider it to essentially be a children’s story. While I can see their point to an extent - there is a strong element of childlike humor that runs through most of the times of dire danger, i.e. the trolls’ conversation, the “attercop” insults in the forest, the riddle game with Gollum, etc. - the end of the book gets really deadly serious and deals with all manner of adult themes. Suddenly, we have a fairly serious treatment of themes such as the nature of betrayal (Bilbo and the Arkenstone,) death, loss, and war, greed and stubbornness, and ultimately, the far-reaching consequences of even our most trivial-seeming actions.

This last one particularly interests me, as it seems pretty deep. Bilbo directly precipitated Smaug’s surprise attack on Lake Town through his thoughtlessness and arrogance. He clearly underestimated the old dragon, giving him boastful clues as to his identity. Smaug, being no fool, immediately put most of it together and promptly destroyed the town along with a good chunk of its inhabitants.*

Then, of course, the death of the dragon left a vacuum which drew all manner of claims to the trove of the Dwarves, nearly precipitating a war between Men, Elves, and Dwarves…and in fact precipitating a massive conflict with the goblins (and as a further consequence, the deaths of Thorin Oakenshield, Fili, and Kili.)

At times, the last few chapters really felt like there was cold wind blowing through them.

Other ruminations: the Arkenstone. What, exactly, was it? I know it was essentially a MacGuffin, but it intrigues me. Any word from JRRT in his letters?

Also: Elrond. What exactly was he? In the Hobbit, it is stated explicitly that he was NOT an elf, yet in LotR, he was clearly an elf lord.

*Linguistic question: I believe the actual words were something like “three parts of the townspeople made it to shore.” What exactly does this mean? Three quarters? Thirty percent? I assumed three quarters…which would mean that Bilbo was pretty well responsible for the loss of 1/4 of the citizens of Lake Town, as well as most of the town itself.

[DrFidelius]

Before our certified Tolkien geeks arrive, I may address a point or two.

Why do you feel that a “children’s book” cannot address serious themes? Not everything suitable for children is bowlderized or disneyfied.

Also, Elrond may be an elf lord, but he is only half-elven.

[RealityChuck]

“Children’s book” is a marketing category. Clearly The Hobbit is not a children’s book; at most you might classify it as YA (a different category). However, Tolkien was writing it for adults, and it has always been marketed to adults, so I don’t see why it would be considered anything other than a novel for adults.

Remember, too, that the categories were different when the book was written.

[eleanorigby]

@RealityChuck

“Children’s book” is a marketing category. Clearly The Hobbit is not a children’s book; at most you might classify it as YA (a different category). However, Tolkien was writing it for adults, and it has always been marketed to adults, so I don’t see why it would be considered anything other than a novel for adults.

Remember, too, that the categories were different when the book was written.

IMS, Tolkien’s son, Chris, was the first reader of his father’s work, and he wrote a review of the book. He stated it was appropriate for ages 9-11. Language and sentence structure were more complex back then. I consider it a children’s/YA book. I enjoy it as an adult. LOTR is YA/adult to me. YMMV.

[Gary_Robson]

I think the depth of the book and the vocabulary required to read it preclude it from being considered simply a children’s book. I read it first in junior high school, and it felt right for my reading skills and comprehension. Upon rereading it many times, I look back now and realize I missed a lot that first time through (and the next, and the next).

I agree that Bilbo screwed up big-time, and didn’t really have to pay the consequences. That wasn’t fully addressed.

[What_Exit]

It is an extended Fairy Story as hit upon in Tolkien’s Essay rather than a Children’s Story. The difference being is that a god fairy story could be for both kids and adults.

Bilbo was thrust in a situation where he did a might better than most would have and he did grow a little over confident. The clues he dropped were not terrible, but he did underestimate Smaug.

Smaug had already destroyed a far greater number at the time he destroy Dale and wiped out Erebor itself. It stinks that Laketown went down with a huge loss of life, but if the events did not occur, far, far more would have died in the war.
Bilbo was but Gandalf’s tool to destroy the threat of a Dragon. To redeem Bilbo, it was in the same conversation with Smaug, that Smaug great weakness was revealed.

Bilbo’s clever thinking and deception nearly stopped a horrible war. He took the Arkenstone before Thorin mentioned it, he deserved a share, he chose his and then chose to use it to prevent more death. Fairly noble for a Burglar.

The best I can say on the Arkenstone is that is was a semi-magical gem that the dwarves carved to perfection. It gave off its own light, but even more amplified the light around it. It was probably a gem made by Aule himself, but that is merely a WAG.

Elrond was Half Elven. His father was the son of Tuor (a man) and the son of Idril the Idril, Great Grand-Daughter of one of the 3 original Elven Kings. Elrond’s Mom was Elwing, whose ancestors are even higher. Elwing is the daughter of Beren, the greatest of humans heroes and Lúthien the daughter of Thingol another of the 3 original elven kings and Melian the Maia. (You could consider her a minor Goddess or lesser Angel).

Jim (darn, took me too long to put that together)

[What_Exit]

@eleanorigby

IMS, Tolkien’s son, Chris, was the first reader of his father’s work, and he wrote a review of the book. He stated it was appropriate for ages 9-11. Language and sentence structure were more complex back then. I consider it a children’s/YA book. I enjoy it as an adult. LOTR is YA/adult to me. YMMV.

I don’t think that is correct, it was the publisher’s son that reviewed it. Rayner Unwin who was 10.

[eleanorigby]

@What Exit?

I don’t think that is correct, it was the publisher’s son that reviewed it. Rayner Unwin who was 10.

It was? Darn. I thought it was Tolkien’s son all these years. Sorry for the mistake. Nevertheless, a boy read it, reviewed it and proclaimed it a child’s book. And I think it was back then. And then language became dumbed down or more straightforward (a bit of both, IMO) and now the sentence structure seems a bit archaic and more “difficult” to read (sort of like Dickens) so people think it must be for adults. Kids loved* The Hobbit* read aloud, IME.

[Ogre]

Smaug had already destroyed a far greater number at the time he destroy Dale and wiped out Erebor itself. It stinks that Laketown went down with a huge loss of life, but if the events did not occur, far, far more would have died in the war.
Bilbo was but Gandalf’s tool to destroy the threat of a Dragon. To redeem Bilbo, it was in the same conversation with Smaug, that Smaug great weakness was revealed.

I think it’s true that 1) the citizens of Lake Town should have made some preparations, just in case Thorin and company were successful (or even merely successful enough to make Smaug angry,) and 2) given that any successful attempt to invade the Lonely Mountain with Smaug in residence was likely to be, ah, spectacular, death and destruction were somewhat inevitable. However, Bilbo directly precipitated Smaug’s punitive expedition by referencing largely uninvolved parties through his arrogance. He really did bring the wrath of the dragon down on their heads. True, it also precipitated Smaug’s death by the Black Arrow, but man, the consequences of his thoughtlessness should have been dealt with more deeply.

[Ogre]

@eleanorigby

It was? Darn. I thought it was Tolkien’s son all these years. Sorry for the mistake. Nevertheless, a boy read it, reviewed it and proclaimed it a child’s book. And I think it was back then. And then language became dumbed down or more straightforward (a bit of both, IMO) and now the sentence structure seems a bit archaic and more “difficult” to read (sort of like Dickens) so people think it must be for adults. Kids loved* The Hobbit* read aloud, IME.

Sure. I certainly did. But I don’t really think children can fairly evaluate a lot of the more subtle thematic elements in the book. That’s why I said it’s not a children’s book. Perhaps I should have said that it’s not just a children’s book.

[What_Exit]

@eleanorigby

It was? Darn. I thought it was Tolkien’s son all these years. Sorry for the mistake. Nevertheless, a boy read it, reviewed it and proclaimed it a child’s book. And I think it was back then. And then language became dumbed down or more straightforward (a bit of both, IMO) and now the sentence structure seems a bit archaic and more “difficult” to read (sort of like Dickens) so people think it must be for adults. Kids loved* The Hobbit* read aloud, IME.

I agree with everything you said about the book. My son loved the Hobbit being read to him. (My wife did the reading though.)

IRC: As he was writing it, Tolkien was reading the Hobbit to his kids in parts.

@Ogre

I think it’s true that 1) the citizens of Lake Town should have made some preparations, just in case Thorin and company were successful (or even merely successful enough to make Smaug angry,) and 2) given any successful attempt to invade the Lonely Mountain with Smaug in residence was likely to be, ah, spectacular, death and destruction were somewhat inevitable. However, Bilbo directly precipitated Smaug’s punitive expedition by referencing largely uninvolved parties through his arrogance. He really did bring the wrath of the dragon down on their heads. True, it also precipitated Smaug’s death by the Black Arrow, but man, the consequences of his thoughtlessness should have been dealt with more deeply.

You are right, but you are being harsh in judging Bilbo. In reading The Silmarillion, we learn that strong and great men and even most elves had little chance in a battle of wits against a Dragon. Bilbo did better than anyone could expect. If you wish to blame someone for the slaughter of Laketown, blame Gandalf, who was busy looking at the big picture.

Jim

[Yllaria]

Isn’t the voice of the narrator enough to mark it as being a children’s book. I don’t have the book to hand/memorized, but I remember it being a jolly uncle telling a story in the nursery sort of voice.

[Ogre]

You are right, but you are being harsh in judging Bilbo. In reading The Silmarillion, we learn that strong and great men and even most elves had little chance in a battle of wits against a Dragon. Bilbo did better than anyone could expect. If you wish to blame someone for the slaughter of Laketown, blame Gandalf, who was busy looking at the big picture.

You’re right about the battle of wits. I didn’t think of that. JRRT even said rather bluntly (in The Hobbit) that Bilbo was perilously close to falling completely under Smaug’s spell.

[What_Exit]

@Yllaria

Isn’t the voice of the narrator enough to mark it as being a children’s book. I don’t have the book to hand/memorized, but I remember it being a jolly uncle telling a story in the nursery sort of voice.

That was the Faerie Story style that Tolkien wanted.

[Laughing_Lagomorph]

@What Exit?

…
The best I can say on the Arkenstone is that is was a semi-magical gem that the dwarves carved to perfection. It gave off its own light, but even more amplified the light around it. It was probably a gem made by Aule himself, but that is merely a WAG.

…

That is an interesting theory. It would certainly explain why Thorin valued it so highly.

[glee]

@Ogre

Sure. I certainly did. But I don’t really think children can fairly evaluate a lot of the more subtle thematic elements in the book. That’s why I said it’s not a children’s book. Perhaps I should have said that it’s not just a children’s book.

1. As What Exit said, it was reviewed by Rayner Unwin, the **10 year old son ** of the publisher.

‘‘Bilbo Baggins was a hobbit who never went for adventures until Gandalf the wizard and his dwarves persuaded him to go. He had a very exciting time fighting goblins and worgs… and returned home – rich!’’

2. ‘The Hobbit’ won the New York Herald Tribune prize for **children’s literature **.

3. These quotes are from www.harpercollinschildrensbooks.co.uk

4. My parents read it to me when I was about 10 years old. I have read it to various kids aged 7-12.

It’s a childrens’s book, but foreshadows the adult world of the Lord of the Rings.

[glee]

@What Exit?

The best I can say on the Arkenstone is that is was a semi-magical gem that the dwarves carved to perfection. It gave off its own light, but even more amplified the light around it. It was probably a gem made by Aule himself, but that is merely a WAG.

If we’re speculating, how about it came from the depths of Moria?
That would give it massive value to dwarves.

[What_Exit]

@glee

If we’re speculating, how about it came from the depths of Moria?
That would give it massive value to dwarves.

But it did not. It was the heart of the mountain. They dug the Arkenstone out of the Lonely Mountain itself. At least that is how I recall it being talked about.

Jim

[WhyNot]

The Hobbit is certainly more of a kid’s book than LOTR, but the end is less of a kid’s book than the beginning. My best evidence being that I always got real bored after Mirkwood, but read the first two thirds over and over and over again. *LOTR *bored me all the way through until I was older.

I first read The Hobbit alone at 7, but that’s probably a bit younger than most. My son read it at around 10 or 11.

And I don’t like or use the phrase “just a children’s book”. I love many books marketed at children and find good ones deal with The Big Issues just as deeply and as well as good “adult” books.

[Laughing_Lagomorph]

@What Exit?

But it did not. It was the heart of the mountain. They dug the Arkenstone out of the Lonely Mountain itself. At least that is how I recall it being talked about.

Jim

How far back had the dwarves lived in the Lonely Mountain? Was it as old as Moria?