I’ve heard a few people say that the homeless choose to be homeless - that they make a choice to live on the street.
They argue that the money they get from begging allows them to buy cigarettes and cheap booze.
What’s the opinion about this? I tend to think that this is true for a majority of cities in England - there are an awful lot of organisations and hostelries for the homeless to go to and seek help.
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Define “choose”.
Seriously.
If I offer you the choice of living on the streets or, for example, being beaten but having a place to sleep, is that a choice?
Many homeless individuals do “choose” to be homeless, for a suitable definition of choose. But that isn’t a affirmation of the joys of living on the street. It’s a condemnation of their alternative.
You try sleeping in the conditions endured in the hostels. Big dorm-room style bedding. Drunks pissing in the corner. An ever present threat of violence from some of those involved. Simple noise making sleep impossible. It may or may not be better than sleeping rough. Be that as it may, certainly an understanding of the true nature of the choice rather than simply condemning those who decide not to take “advantage” of it is advisable.
And you have to remember the circumstances that lead to many homeless sleeping rough in the first place. Many have mental illnesses. Many cannot cope with being confined with others. It’s too simplistic to hope that you can provide a big room and everything will be all right.
Not that hostels don’t have their place - they do. I’m merely pointing out that for many homeless they are simply worse than being on the street. Is that a choice? I guess so. It seems a somewhat academic question though.
pan
Only a small majority of homeless are like this, but some people (including my stupid friend) claim all homeless people are like this. It is understandable because these are the only homeless people they see, the rest are at shelters trying to find a job. So they assume that since Ed the drunk likes being homeless, all homeless like him. Then, if they are anything like my friend, they refuse to acknowledge the existance of the many other homeless that want to better themselves. If you want to really help the homeless, give money to shelters, not the beggers in the street.
Plus many of the street people have some sort of mental condition that prevents them from interacting normally with society.
There’s an old State sketch with a talk show:
“and coming up next, a man so poor that he refuses to live in a house”
perhaps a clarification of terms is in order?
“homeless” refers to anyone who is without an established domicile. This includes people who have just moved out of a bad relationship and are living at a shelter or hitting up friends for a nights lodging or staying in their cars temporarily. It also would include some one (like my one client) who was released from a prison cell to discover that while he was locked up, his family moved and didn’t tell him.
If, of course, they’re talking about the ‘chronically homeless’ that they see begging on the streets etc. then we go back to kabbes point about defining choice.
As a shortened version of the above points, the next time some one makes the claim that the homeless are ‘choosing to buy cigs and cheap wine instead’, ask them A. what kind of lodging you think would be available for that kind of money? and B. what landlord would rent to some one w/o a verifiable income, verifiable rent/credit history C. How do you set up looking at places to rent/a job if you don’t currently have a phone number to get messages at etc.
For those of us who work with the homeless, the ‘getting back into the scheme of things’ can be a long, difficult process. Getting the money together for rent + deposit, plus utility turn ons etc, can be a daunting task for some one on a limited or non existent budget. It’s not impossible, but certainly can take more than a few days.
This is not to say that there aren’t folks who weigh out their options (pay rent? get high?) and opt for the option w/o shelter. But massive social issues can rarely be handled by 10 second pithy sound bites.
I’ve met a girl, somewhat attractive, who was the “chose to be homeless type,” without loosely defining “choose,” either. Well, homeless was a bit of a misnomer. She stayed with friends, parents, etc, just hopping around. Begged for money, made about 60 a day.
I think most of the homeless got there through no choice, but stay there through choice (barring the crazies and maladjusted persons, of course).
and you came up with this position… how?? the only reference in your post is to one particular individual that you know personally.
Certainly we have numerous social programs available to help persons get back on their feet.
I have also personally known three different businessmen who hired some homeless guys to do some simple labor at better-than-minimum-wage. All three had the same experience: they showed up late and or drunk and or not at all. The work was terribly lousy.
I am not applying these three to the rest of the homeless persons in America, merely stating that it isn’t impossible–even “practially impossible”-- to get out of such a situation. I think, largely, factors of pride and laziness, or combinations of them, along with a touch of futility remove the motivation. As such, persons who are compentent and homeless are so by choice.
Hmm. I ask you on what basis you make this sweeping generality, and your response is you know three businessmen who hired homeless and found “x” to be true. Of course, we still don’t know that these are representative of homeless in general, or even representative of those in your area, but you’re certain enough from this evidence to assert that those who are “competent and homeless are so by choice”.
And what percentage of total homeless are ‘competent & homeless’?
Interesting how you get to that statement, isn’t it? You’ve defined out anyone to whom the obstacles of homelessness are effecitvely nearly insurmountable as if they were not part of the question.
Yes, there may be some people who make a choice to be homeless. That percentage, from data I’ve seen, is very small. For those who work in the system, the great majority have a wide variety of issues that negatively impact their ability to get/keep a job, secure and maintain housing. And, since for people living near the poverty level any event can be enough to send the family spiraling into homelessness (one illness, car breaks down, child suddenly outgrows all their clothes/needs glasses or whatever)
So far your ‘source’ for your stance has come from now a grand total of 4 people whom you know. I’d suggest that you take a moment to educate yourself about general information before you attempt to extrapolate from your personal friend’s assessment to the general.
Homeless vets wherein we discover that about 40% of homeless men in the US are vets. They list some of the major problems facing their population “substance abuse and mental illness”. I guess they wouldn’t be part of your ‘competent’ group, eh?
and of course some of them are kids guess they wouldn’t be part of your ‘competent’ group either, eh?
No, the basis was the existence of all the programs available to help persons not be homeless anymore. Really, that’s why I quoted you.
I have never heard the word “competent” ascribed to “persons with mental illness.” I don’t think I would say such a thing, and I surely haven’t in this thread.
Really, my opinion of the definition of competent is irrelevant, please refer to the legal definition. It will suit me fine.
My evidence is anecdotal. I quoted you as a justification.
People who sleep in homeless shelters are still homeless. People who sleep in other people’s homes are still homeless.
There are those who prefer living on the streets to living in a home. I think this number is negligible. There are those who choose to feed their addictions instead of doing the things neccessary to have and keep a home. This number is larger. I don’t know how it is where you live, but the money made begging cannot keep a person housed, fed and clothed where I live.
Again, I don’t know how it is where you live, but if these social programs do not include a housing stipend, then said social programs will not provide you with enough for a place for you to call home.
Of course we can all feel better when we pass those unfortunates who live in filth and eat out of garbages and say to ourselves that they choose this life. I, myself do not need to be so self-serving.
The homeless issue is a very complex one, as wring has pointed out, and can’t really be lumped as one large problem.
I think I can offer a unique perspective on this. Right now, I am currently living in an “emergency” shelter in Houston, Texas. I am there with approximately 40 others, who have 40 different reasons for being there.
A few have physical disabilities that caused them to lose their livelihoods, and someone at the state office told them they weren’t eligible for disability payments or SSI. No income means no place to live.
Several have mental illnesses that keep them from being fully functional. One of the women talks to a picture of Jesus in the manner of a regular conversation. Another is psychotic and on medication. These women do receive SSI for their illnesses, but they often have to spend that money on medications to control it.
Others have gotten out of abusive relationships, addictions, legal problems, family disagreements, and so forth. No one there sees it as a choice. No one sees homelessness as an adventure or as a way out of rent or responsibility.
There are many services available to the homeless. I am pleased to say that I and most of the women have made good use of them. But it is hard to get on your feet when you’ve been cut off at the knees. I’m one of the luckier ones, because I’ve got marketable job skills that allow me to work for more than minimum wage. A lot of these women don’t.
As for the homeless veteran population (into which category I fall), the VA has launched a program that offers supportive health care and (in some cities) transitional housing. They also offer assistance with finding jobs and with finding other services as the veteran may require.
There aren’t any one-size-fits-all solutions for this problem, but at least there are ways to help the ones who want help.
Robin
One thing I’d like to point out is that the people you see on a regular basis on the streets are typically chronically homeless. The temporarily homeless are much less visible (because they’re around for less time and because they tend to make more use of the available resources, shelters and whatnot). And those are two different populations, with different situations and problems.
The chronically homeless usually have multiple problems, and homelessness is a symptom or a result, not a starting point - they may be addicts, victims of domestic violence, mentally ill, etc.; sometimes they are all of the above and more. Some people have so many problems that it’s like unpicking a tightly tied, complex knot; you try to work on this part, and this other part becomes worse. You try to start at this end, and you find you need to move something else first. These folks are the ones who are likely to stay in their bad life situations (sorry for the jargon) longer - because so much work has to be done to get anywhere. And sometimes they aren’t, for one reason or another, able to do or committed to doing that work - it takes an awful lot of effort, and these kinds of problems can really sap your energy, not to mention screwing with your organizational and orientational skills. So if these people are homeless, they’re going to be homeless for a while, and you’ll see them more often and notice them more.
The temporarily homeless, like MsRobyn describes, are a widely varied group. You can end up temporarily homeless for all kinds of reasons; one of the most terrifying things for me, when listening to the stories of folks who have ended up homeless, is realizing that something similar could have happened to me. I am lucky in that I have a safety net, in the form of people who care about me and who are able to help me - without those, I’d have spent much more time than I did homeless. (I spent a very short period of time homeless as a teenager.)
Since the temporarily homeless can become chronically homeless - homelessness makes you much more vulnerable to other kinds of problems - resources are often directed at emergency intervention, which just means taking care of people as soon as they become homeless. People who have been homeless longer require more resources and have less available for them, on the whole, so once you’re that far down, it’s really hard to get up.
That said, yes, some people choose to be homeless. Sometimes they’re chosing a lifestyle, sometimes they’re chosing the lesser of the evils, sometimes they aren’t aware they’re choosing anything until it’s too late.
And some people who are homeless never had any direct choice.
You can’t know. And there is no single label that fits all homeless people. Just as with any other non-selected population, it’s impossible to sum up - or dismiss - the homeless with a single sentence. Try thinking of a single sentence that does not describe our preselected traits (by preselected, I mean that, for example, we all have to have some kind of computer access to be here, so our presence here means we’ve preselected for that trait) that would apply to all dopers, and you’ll see what I mean.
(My answer is based on the following experiences. I used to work for an agency that dealt with a large number of homeless people, substance abusers, victims of domestic violence, and perps of dv. (Needless to say, there’s a significant amount of overlap between the groups.) As a writer and researcher, I now study high-risk ppns. And, of course, I’ve been there - very briefly, but scarily nonetheless.)
This one has been done before, albeit not with such an egregious thread title–
and I found it equally offense the last time around.
When I was homeless, I remained in that condition for a few months as a completely nowhere-indoors-to-sleep homeless person, followed by over a year in which I lived in a facility of condescending services and was still regarded and treated as a homeless person. That I eventually got out of the entire situation had a lot to do with the fact that I had a high school diploma, was literate and well-read, and was appropriate college material.
Not everyone I met who shared my situation had those kind of advantages and several of them had very little realistic chance of becoming gainfully employed, lacking skills, education, and the scholastic and cultural background that would make it easy to acquire either easily.
Every time I meet someone who says the homeless are homeless on purpose I’m tempted to tell them to try it for a season or two and see for themselves how much fun it is.
Other Dopers recount their experiences as homeless people in this thread which you should read.
The other thing I forgot to mention is that money for the homeless comes from different sources. So, a group interested in domestic violence will solicit donations for its programs. A drug and alcohol program will solicit donations for that. And so forth. An alcoholic in need of a bed might not be able to find one because, although there might be 100 beds available for battered women and children, there might not be one in a detox. Some shelters (such as the one I’m in right now), refuse public money because they’re faith-based and don’t want governmental interference in their religious practices, so they solicit from private donors and apply for corporate philanthropy. Shelters must also solicit for food, clothing and personal supplies, and many Eagle Scouts choose that as their community service project.
Robin
If I read wring’s post correctly, he is saying that people afflicted with mental illnesses are often not competent.
Of the homeless people I’ve met, many cannot function normally in society, due to mental illness, substance abuse, or other reasons I may not be aware of. I have difficulty imagining these people successfully navigating a jobs program or any other bureaucratic hurdles without medical treatment first. I suspect many homeless people don’t fit your (or anyone else’s) definition of “competent,” which is why we have a homeless problem.
There may be some who live homeless by choice, but I’d wager good money they’re a minority. How often would people choose such an uncomfortable life?
Wevets gets an A in reading comprehension, but fails ( 
) gender assignment (I’m female - 
)
AHunter it is commendable not only that you were able to achieve things yourself, but that you recognize that others still may have more insurmountable burdens.
One of my clients stopped in today. Not only is he homeless, and an exoffender, but he’s got a serious speech impediment that makes it difficult to understand what he’s saying. and an almost non existant work history. Alcohol addiction. and, an ‘affect’ that sorta reminds you of those folks from Deliverance. Not surprisingly, he’s having a tough time convincing anyone to hire him.
erislover:
Not sure what you’re driving at here, but I will indeed refer you to the legal definition, which is applicable to someone diagnosed “mentally ill” until and unless a competency hearing takes place and rules that the “mentally ill” person is, in fact, not competent.
(Yeah, in addition to being a formerly homeless person, I’m also one of the people who has received a psychiatric label, and as a result I’m a card-carrying member of the psychiatric inmates’ liberation movement).
Look, it has been mentioned that it isn’t impossible. I mentioned that even though it isn’t impossible, a matter of pride or a feeling of futility make it harder than it is.
I didn’t say it wasn’t hard. I didn’t say they liked being homeless. Really. I also didn’t say they chose to be homeless in the first place.
BUT erislover what you did say was
(emphasis mine)
So, my challenge to you has been to support your contention that ‘most’ who stay homeless are there through choice.
(unless of course, you’re contending that ‘most’ are in the ‘crazzies/maladjusted’ group, which renders your statement nearly meaningless in this debate)