An lot of folks in this thread need to live a lot longer IMO.
‘Panhandler’ is different from ‘homeless’ is different from a ‘bum’ is not always a adict is a lot of times an addict and untill you know a lot about addiction, depression and DIVS and Repeat offenders and women who keep marrying abusers and learn about what goed on in the ‘drifters’ world, manny of you ‘will find it hard to believe’ but ya know what?
The World is Round,
It is not Fair,
It is just Damm Round !!!
. . . ummm . . . huh?
I work for an organization that is dedicated to helping thos taht are less fortunate. Trust me, it is very irritating to have people dripping with leather and gold begging for help! I just try to remind myself that you are always going to have people who want something for nothing. My only hope is that somewhere along the line i am able to help some people who are really trying to help themselves!
WHOA! Don’t be too quick to jump on donnat’s ass.
Not only am I a Vet Rep, I have been a homeless veteran counselor for many years.
Yes, there are some veterans who are homeless due to their Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), however, the number is minute compared to veterans (non-homeless) suffering from the same condition. In nearly all of the cases, claims of PTSD or some other disability as a result of military service is a scam.
Veterans who suffer from severe PTSD rarely make it known to those outside their families or the VA system (if even that), let alone use it as a way to beg money from strangers on the streets.
A few years ago there was a wheelchair bound homeless “vet” who sat on the same corner with his sign that said “Please Help. Homeless Vet”. One day the local news paper decided to do a human interest article featuring this guy. He spilled his guts and gave his tragic tale about his war time service, how he became homeless, how he lost his wife and kids, blah blah blah.
My boss and I loaded up on VA forms and wandered over to the corner and offered to help him. To make a long story short, the guy was full of shit. His service dates didn’t jibe with his age, his information didn’t bring up any records, his stressors in service were unverifiable, everything he said was conflicting. Mysteriously, he moved on to another town as soon as we let him know we were on to him, but not before he basically confessed to us that it was all a scam.
I can assure you that a lot homeless people claiming to be veterans are liars. Most homeless veterans claiming homelessness due to service connected disabilities are liars. However, there are some homeless veterans who are self medicating their PTSD so extensively they have become homeless.
The number one cause of homelessness is due to mental disorders and substance abuse not necessarily related to military service. I can’t tell you how many homeless “vets” I have come across in all these years that have never seen one day of military service.
There are more than you would think. A lot of people are homeless because they do not want the responsibility of everyday living requirements including employment and housekeeping. We work closely with the homeless shelters in educating these people in basic living skills, job placement, housing, rehab, etc. You would be surprise at how many don’t want help and chose to remain homeless.
If you are going to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the people riding the “homeless veteran” scam. Be pissed that they are riding the coattails of those people who actually serviced their country.
When I have more time I will clarify the different types of homeless from the addicts to the mentally disabled to the scam artists to the truly down and out, but for now I have a homeless vet waiting in my office and must go. 
DIane once again same thing as to gobear=
the people I was talking about were VETS - 'cause the VEt worker certified so.
My point remains.
are there fakers? sure.
are there others who aren’t ? sure
Now, the big fucking question is
which group was I talking about???
Donnat commented on homeless guys blaming their problems on being “Vietnam Vets.”
You blasted him by saying that vet reps have told of genuine vets who are homeless.
Diane and I have both said that the number of homeless gyus who claims to be vets are genuine.
NOBODY, least of all Diane or I, wish to slight the problems of vets.
We are talking about scammers posing as vets to reap the benefits of unearned sympathy. dissing frauds posing as vets, which is what we were discussing, is NOT the same as dissing vets.
Whoops, that got screwed up. That third paragraph should read
[quote]
Diane and I have both said that the majority of the guys claiming to be homeless vets are not genuine.
I doubt most homeless people clear $300 per week. On the other hand, you could probably beg $3 an hour for 100 hours a week if you had your mind set on it and did nothing else. I would never give anything to a homeless person who was offensive when refused the last time.
And my point remains the same.
Now, the big fucking answer. I don’t give a shit which group you were talking about, my post wasn’t meant for you alone but for others in this thread.
Read my post. I am not saying that there are no Vietnam veterans living on the street, there are. I’m not claiming that there are no homeless veterans on the street because they suffer from PTSD, there are. I’m not saying that there are no veterans on the street because they self medicate PTDS or physical disabilities with substance abuse, there are many. I know, because as a Veteran Rep and as a Homeless Veteran Cordinator, I have the ability to identify those
as veterans as well as confirm medical and mental diagnosis.
However, as I said in my post, I can assure you that with my 14 plus years working in this field I can safely claim that a huge percent of homeless “vets” are not vets and have never served and a huge percent of verified vets are not homeless due to service connected disabilities but for a number of other unrelated reasons.
In fact, it is rare that service connected disabilities are the sole reason a veteran is homeless.
I often give change to beggars if it’s convenient. I don’t really care what they use it for. A bottle of cheap booze or a pack of smokes may make it a lot easier to get them through the night. I’ve been there. But just ask for the change straight out.
What I cannot tolerate is a story. I don’t want to hear the sob story. I don’t care where you are going or why you are here or what you are trying to accomplish.
A couple of days ago in McDonalds, a woman came up to me right as I got my food. She started telling me the tale about how her kid was hungry and she wanted to get this or that, and she had money, but it was a check and couldn’t get it cashed because it was Sunday and blah, blah, blah… I had to interupt her. “Can we cut to the chase here??? My food is getting cold!” I gave her a buck. Then she asked for a couple of my fries and started to reach for them. I told her that was a very bad idea…
Geez, I knew that a life with your hand stuck up a cow’s bottom would be bad but I had no idea just how bad…
Anyway, if a homeless person wants my pound in order to buy booze, that’s his choice as a consumer. If I were living on the streets then I’d sure as hell want to be wankered too.
Do you buy nothing but food?
And yeah many people are homeless “by choice”. Except that the choice is that or live in an abusive home, or maybe sleep with their kid in a hostel surrounded by violent drunks. Or maybe they’ve become institutionalised from years in jail or an asylum, now released into “care in the community” and can’t cope with the various social necessities involved in renting a flat. Or maybe they’re mentally ill - whether they started out that way or have been made so by too many years on the streets.
There are choices and there are choices. If someone has chosen to live on the streets, that really tells you more about the alternatives than it does about them.
pan
Diane & Gobear
If, as you claim, you were ‘responding to others in this thread’ then why the fuck did you quote me? and specifically where I was talking about specific Vets that were not frauds.
And, as far as getting on donnats ass, here’s what I was responding to:
Nothing there about the guy being a fraud. Both of you assumed that he was. Neither of you know, nor does donat.
I felt he was quite disparaging about Viet Nam Vets in particular and took him to task, explaining that there were, in fact, Vets w/service related disabilities, and that vet reps I knew personally told me of some living in the woods. Now, you both decided to take those fucking words, about specific homeless Vietnam Vets who were known to be vets, and use them as your
‘object lesson’ of today’s thread.
If your point was that there were frauds, your point would have been more appropriate w/some other quotes than mine.
So, again, My point stands. They do exist. frauds do exist as well. If you want to make the point about frauds, then I’d suggest that you select a fucking quote about the frauds instead of the quotes about the real ones. Sound fair?
And kabbes - once again, you said it well.
Spot on. I had an argument with an ex cow-orker some while back that he’d be damned if he was going give change to a local homeless guy just so he could go and buy booze.
How bloody hypocritical is that, when he (like me) would go home most nights and have at least a couple of beers or a glass of wine after work.
I work in property management. We help homeless people find apartments. I cannot tell you how many homeless turn down apartments. Legal apartments, good apartments for the flimsiest of reasons. The state offers to pay for them, we offer to help them move in, and the homeless say “I’m not living there.”
If that isn’t choosing to be homeless, I don’t know what is.
Sorry, Kabbes (especially since you’re one of my favorite posters), but that is a stupid argument.
A beggar is not entitled to get wasted on my dime. I work for my money. I don’t get handouts from Mummy. I paid my way through college with student loans and working summers. I did not whine and beg for somebody to give me money.
I’m entitled to buy what I want because I earned the money to pay for it. If I give a beggar money, I get to stipualte how it is spent. In addition, a beggar is obviously not able to control his spending, and giving him money to get wasted will only keep him on the streets. Subsidizing homelessness is a bad idea.
I am entirely sympathetic to that point of view gobear. And if one wishes to alleviate the problems of homelessness one is much much better donating the money to a charity that has a coordinated response to the whole problem rather than giving money one-on-one.
Nevertheless, I don’t see it as fundamentally wrong that a homeless person might want to buy something that lets them escape from reality for a bit. I’d even suggest that they need to do so a hell of a lot more than I, so as Xerxes said it is hypocritical in the extreme for me to lambast them for getting drunk then do so myself.
The way I see it, you are (as you say) entitled to use your money as you see fit. You earned it. If you choose to give it to somebody then you have fulfilled this aim. You can be happy with yourself. Once you have given it to them however, they then have every right to spend it on whiskey rather than bread if that is what they see fit. If you want to give them food, give them food, not money. If (as I know sometimes happens) this gift is thrown in your face then that’s their loss.
I understand that someone may wish to give money just for subsistence food and no more, I just don’t particularly understand why. I like to think that even a homeless person with no money is entitled to occasionally have some things beyond mere survival. I may even subsidise this (though I’m more of a ‘donate to charities’ than a ‘give on the streets’ kind of guy precisely because giving directly is so ineffective towards creating a solution).
Anyway - and more importantly - gobear said he likes me. This is now really the key issue in this thread and shouldn’t be ignored. I thank you for bringing it to my attention 
pan
kabbes? You’re shameless. Shameless I tell you.
But in a good way.
First off, loosen your panties, you’re starting to turn blue.
Secondly, I directly responded to you regarding verified veterans when I said:
“I am not saying that there are no Vietnam veterans living on the street, there are. I’m not claiming that there are no homeless veterans on the street because they suffer from PTSD, there are. I’m not saying that there are no veterans on the street because they self medicate PTDS or physical disabilities with substance abuse, there are many. I know, because as a Veteran Rep and as a Homeless Veteran Cordinator, I have the ability to identify those as veterans as well as confirm medical and mental diagnosis.”
I’ll quote whateverthefuck I wanna quote. Dig?
Take a breath. Tone down your spaz-out before your head starts spinning and your eyeballs explode. Then listen very carefully what I am trying to get through your pea brain.
I UNDERSTAND there are legitimate, verified, homeless veterans.
Of those veterans, SOME are homeless because they are suffering disabilities related to service. However, in my experience I would say that is an extremely low number.
Using your example, yes, there are legit Vietnam vets living homeless in the woods, BUT now pay attention here - A minute number of those vets are homeless due to service related disabilities.
Comprehende’?
FYI -
Vietnam military service does NOT necessarily mean the veteran saw combat. Many served in country as cooks, clerk typists, supply clerks. Vietnam service does not automatically classify a veteran as having verifiable military stressors.
Your homeless, wood-living, verified Vietnam-era veteran may have slung hash State-side for 180 days. They may have verified military service, but I have been trying to make you understand is that it is quite possible they are not homeless because of it.
What I have been trying to explain to you is that there is a vast difference between true combat disabled veterans, non-combat veterans who lie or embellish their military service in order to play society, and the non-veterans who claim to be Vietnam vets to gain sympathy. The first is very rare.
One reason you won’t see many legitimate service connected disabled veterans who are homeless is that most are receiving a monthly service connected compensation payment. Depending on the severity of the disability, this tax-free benefit can be more than adequate to support the veteran. This is just one facet of the many programs available to LEGIT disabled veterans.
Each year I work the Homeless Veteran Stand Down. They are attended by literally hundreds of homeless veterans who are verified as veterans before they are allowed to enter. I can tell you in all certainty that all of the thousands of homeless veterans I have helped in all of my years working the Stand Downs, shelters, as well as my duties as the HVC, I can probably count on two hands and maybe a few toes, the number who are homeless because of a service related condition.
A large percent of homeless veterans, aren’t veterans at all. Most verified veterans aren’t homeless because of service related disabilities. They are disgracefully using the experiences of true, service connected disabled veterans in order to scam.
gee, Diane my panties thank you for your kind interest, but it’s not necessary.
and thanks, too, for the big news flash that you can quote whatever you wish.
Of course, if I feel (as I did/do here) that by quoting me you’re specifically misrepresenting my position, am also free to call you on it.
all of your statements about what you see, know etc, m
ay relate to the general discussion but not to what I had
posted. So, for example if I post
and you quote me later on as
I will indeed be irritated with that tactic, as you would be as well.
And, as I pointed out, the person I was originally pissed at wasn’t talking about ‘those falsely claiming to be vets’ but specifically dismissing vets who didn’t want to talk about their service in Nam. And I still think they should be raked over the coals for that attitude.
(parenthetically - if you know the person isn’t really a vet, yes, indeedy do, they’re scum, but to be dismissive of some one who claims to be a Vet merely 'cause ‘oh, too bad you don’t want to talk about it, boo-hoo’ type of attitude is the shits, too.)
YOur explanations to me were never necessary. I know that there are scam artists out there. Gee, I’ve worked w/convicts for over 20 years, ya think I might have some experience w/ people who lie/cheat/etc?
My point was specific to that poster who was dismissive to ‘a Nam vet who didn’t want to talk about it’. And I still think that’s a shitty attitude. And I referred to some very specific people who I knew to be homeless, vets, and not very talkative. I say I know this 'cause I heard about it from two vet reps with whom I work. See, these are two very real guys who know there job. I assume that you also know your job. But the difference is, I have experience with them first hand, in person that tells me that their credentials are real.
Now, I believe that you are who you claim to be. However, by the same token, I’m not going to disbelieve the two people I know in Real LIfe, and take your word over theirs.
Now, unless you’re telling me that these two guys don’t know what they’re talking about and that there are zero Nam VEts living in the circumstances that I’ve described here in MI, then what the fuck are you arguing with me about? I"ve said already, ‘why , yes, there are folks who scam -but that’s not who I was talking about’ and 'yes, there aren’t necessarily tons and tons of people in these circusmstance but that’s not what I claimed.
Any other concerns? (now that we have the status of my panties clear?)
:rolleyes:
Why does this sentence remind me of the man who screams, "WHAT? ME YELLING!!! I’M NOT FUCKING YELLING!!! WHY DO YOU THINK I AM YELLLLING!!!"
From the start, you’ve tried to make this into an argument where there is none. I’ve made the attempt to clarify some things said in this thread but you have been overly sensitive or just looking for a fight.
You state certain things in your posts, I make comments and clarifications that puts you into hysterics - tough shit.
I don’t give a shit about you or your short fuse and sensitive feelings enough to keep this cat fight going. I don’t have the time but even moreso, I don’t have the interest to play your spastic pissing game.