The HORROR of The Warning To Humanity Statement!!

A small Hijack, if I may:

I’m not sure whether this is something I should bring up here, or in the Pit, but I know this David Uganda fellow. He’s posted this exact same stuff on a number of EZBoards, including my own board. This man will resort to personal insults in serious debates, and ignore moderator warnings. He will also quote people all the time, and reply to these quotes with complete non-sequiturs. He’ll rarely provide sources to support his claims, and often fabricate facts and statistics (he’s even confessed to doing such things, and described them as “little white lies in my pursuit of the TRUTH and my fight to expose EVIL” - his words).

He’s also known to “troll” very heavily. He likes to twist people’s nickname in ways that are best not described in GD.

Again, I’m sorry if this post is out of place in GD, and mods can feel free to delete it if it is. I just thought I’d post this here, rather than start a whole new thread about it.

Member of the silent majority checking in here…

Not to disparage the value of your taxicab confessions education, but he’s right. You don’t know what you’re talking about, ‘champ’.

For the record for those who aren’t familiar with him, David Suzuki is a science writer who is among the more militant of the anti-progress types. He is definitely not an unbiased source. He’s been doing this shtick since the 1970’s, and since then the list of things he’s been wrong about is long and distinguished.

And here’s another clue - in the climate study realm, a 1999 book that is not a primary source but rather quotes older, secondary sources is getting a little long in the tooth. Most of the research Suzuki will be referencing would probably be at least five or six years old now, or even older. Given the way Suzuki picks his sources, he’d be quoting Mayan astrologers if their work with bloody entrails supported his conclusions. I haven’t read the book, so I don’t know if the research quoted is still considered accurate, but it’s certainly worth considering.

For the record, here’s my opinion on global warming. It’s obviously happening (1 degree increase last century, roughly). At least a portion of that is probably due to the influence of man. However, how that translates into future warming is still unclear, because we don’t really know why the last century’s warming occured, and what mechanisms may arise naturally to slow or stop it. Our current atmospheric models don’t do any better at prediction than throwing darts at a dartboard.

Just the other day there was news of some research tying cosmic rays to upper-atmosphere heating. Clearly, the complex functioning of our atmosphere is still beyond our understanding.

But we do know this: In the past, the level of CO2 in the atmosphere has fluctuated greatly, as has the temperature of the Earth. But the system is clearly highly stable, or we would never have had a chance to evolve and become who we are. So we are not headed for a runaway greenhouse or even drastic changes in temperature.

Current estimates for warming over the next 100 years center around a value of about 2 to 4 degrees Fahrenheit. If that’s all there is, then it’s possible that it will be a net economic gain for mankind as a whole, at least at the bottom of that range, as growing seasons get longer, winter heating costs go down, and the zone of agricultural land widens.

So we’re not headed for catastrophe - we’re headed for a change which will likely require re-adjustments to various economies but with little or no overall economic damage. The outside possibility is that the warming will be great enough that there is significant economic damage and dislocation over time.

However, the next question you need to ask is, “what can we do about it?” Outside of the wet dreams of hardcore environmentalists, we are not about to abandon our high energy lifestyles. And even optimists do not believe that solar and wind power can provide all our energy needs. We’ll still be cranking out lots of CO2, no matter what we do. So, how much reduction are we willing to withstand, and what will be the effect of that?

The Kyoto treaty gives us a bit of a clue as to what we are willing to do right now. Because not just the USA, but many countries are now balking at implementing it. It’s just too expensive. And yet, the total net effect of the Kyoto treaty over the next 100 years would be to reduce warming by about 7/10 of a degree. How many trillions of dollars are we willing to spend for that particular reduction?

The small amounts of change we’re talking about also mean we have some time. Time to develop better models, to take more measurements, and to hopefully come up with a much more accurate picture of the potential costs and benefits of a range of options. At that point, we can make intelligent policy decisions. Until then, we’re just chasing shadows.

Ooops… The lack of an “edit” function forces me to add this: When I wrote “David Uganda”, I was of course referring to “David Wilson”. It gets a little confusing, as he uses a number of nicknames on EZBoards.

I have trolled at your slimey BB, called the Incinerator.

Which is dominated by profanity and love of gross pornography.

I don’t suggest anyone go there…i felt sick after my stint.

If you can show me any pornography in The Incinerator (which isn’t the board, but one of its fora - a poor man’s version of the Pit), please prove it. Otherwise, I’ll just count that as one of your many unsupported claims.

I really don’t think we should hijack this thread so much, though. It’s not something you want to do too much in GD. In any case, you’ve already broken SDMB rules by insulting people in GD.

If you can show me any pornography in The Incinerator (which isn’t the board, but one of its fora - a poor man’s version of the Pit), please prove it. Otherwise, I’ll just count that as one of your many unsupported claims.

I really don’t think we should hijack this thread so much, though. It’s not something you want to do too much in GD. In any case, you’ve already broken SDMB rules by insulting people in GD.

It’s ridiculous that any posters here, on an internet message board, feel that they know better than “some 1,700 of the world’s leading scientists, including the majority of Nobel laureates in the sciences.”

Again, here is the link that was in the OP, to the World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity from the Union of Concerned Scientists. Go to the article, and reread it.

Instead of thinking up smart-ass ways to refute or challenge the assertions, read them as if they were real.
1700 people who are smarter than you agree with this statement.

Obviously, even if every single word isn’t true, there is some truth to what is being said.

And that truth should be enough to prompt any reasonably intelligent person to look at his or her lifestyle, reassess it, and figure out ways to lessen their impact on our world.

If you can’t see that, then you’ve either just never grew out of your “rebellious teenager” phase, or you’re in denial, because you’re too damn lazy to change your lifestyle of “convenience.”

It’s much easier to argue against the fact that something is a problem, then admit that you are, in fact, a part of that problem.
-TGD

Someone else brought up the idea that as we start to run out of fossil fuels the C02 problems will be allieviated. Someone else claimed that we would have plenty of oil/coal/gas and that the global warming and pollution would be the “stop” or limiting factor.

I think that we will find out soon when we reach the peak of global oil production (predicted from 2005-2010). Once oil production peaks and heads down then other fuels will have to be used more and more, and coal (as dirty as it is to use and to mine) will become more important as well as nuclear power. Coal is not limitless either (especially with a growing demand for energy) so nuclear may become the major player in the next 20-40 years with more and more alternative energy (solar, goethermal, wind, tidal) to supplement a nuclear powered world.
Perhaps the damage done to the environment by fossil fuel use will not be permant once we switch to other energy sources (we do have that little bitty problem of nuclear waste).

Check out these sources on predictions (with lots of analysis) of the peak of world oil production (and some mention the approaching peak of natural gas soon after) :

http://www.princeton.edu/hubbert/index.html

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/domino/html/research.nsf/$$ViewTemplate+For+msspeeches?openform

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/

http://www.dieoff.org/

[MetaAnalysis]
This is just about the poorest debating tactic there is: “This person is smarter than you, and they say it’s true, so it must be true.” Someone else smarter than me, Arthur Conan Doyle, thought faeries existed, so I guess there must be some truth to it, huh?
[/MetaAnalysis]

Things are either true, or they are not, and their truth value does not change based on the number of people, or the educational level of those people, who believe it.

Perhaps you should go back there and pretend to be important and respected, LOLOLOLOLOL.

I Asked you a number of serious questions which you ignored, or said…that’s none of your business.

Also…i don’t consider your hellhole worthy of the effort to be truthful.

See ya at TFTF.

TGD…yes, we award these people with the Noble Prize, and would obviously respect what they say on their respective fields, but when their message happens to confront greed and excess…LOOK OUT BOY, LOL.

It is my belief, that between weather and bugs, we’ll get the message within 10-15yrs.
So i believe we will avoid extinction…but for example, when one reviews Shells behaviour, we are left with our conscience to decide if we moniter our lives and make sensible changes, before the truth comes crashing down.

Having said all that, people are more than entitled to dispute anything, but blatantly suggesting that TWTHS is bogus, is in my view outrageously silly.
People have to distinguish between proof as per the scientific method and educated guesses by some of societies smartest men, based on models which have a degree of unreliability.

The unreliability is incidental to numerous scientists,ecologists and biologists, who keep saying the same thing…within a margin of 20-50yrs.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131455

For those who care, i have rendered the Zaphod character…null and void.

pldennison-

“Things are either true, or they are not, and their truth value does not change based on the number of people, or the educational level of those people, who believe it.”

This adds nothing to the debate, other than dragging it off-topic. Do you have nothing to say about the matter at hand?

Well, since you’re the expert on “truth,” and it’s buddy “not true,” please share the truth value of The Warning to Humanity (the OP, remember?) with all of us.

“This is just about the poorest debating tactic there is: “This person is smarter than you, and they say it’s true, so it must be true.” Someone else smarter than me, Arthur Conan Doyle, thought faeries existed, so I guess there must be some truth to it, huh?”

This is ridiculous, and I’m not going to waste my time typing out an explanation. Society chooses to honor scientists with degrees, titles, and awards. Are you such a rebel that you can’t honor the intellectuals whom your society chooses to honor? You just don’t agree with the scientific process, and the merit it holds? You going to do all of their research yourself?

So, by your logic, we should just ignore everything that Euclid, Galileo, Da Vinci, Newton, and Einstein said.

They were living in times when different paradigms than our own were readily accepted as common knowledge. Some of these (“earth is flat” “Adam and Eve” “atom is the smallest unit of matter” etc.) are akin to beliveing in fairies.

So, despite the fact that these people were more informed than us in certain fields, we shouldn’t heed their conclusions and advice. Because they might have belived things that weren’t true.

Sheesh. I’m glad we got that cleared up. I can already feel the earth cooling down a little.

Happy sailing,

TGD

I didn’t take a position on Richard Scarry’s Terrible, Horrible, No-Good, Very Bad Warning at all, dalmuti. I pointed out that you aren’t going to convince anybody about anything by telling them, “Someone smarter than you says it is true.” Remember, a million people can believe in a bad idea, and that doesn’t make it any less bad; a point that you would almost surely be forced to concede, since most people in the world are not vegetarians or vegans. But I guess “some smart people believe it” only matters when it’s a cause you support, or something.

“Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo, it is not sufficient for you to be persecuted by an unjust majority – you must also be right.”

I’d trust pretty much anything that our SDMB friends jshore and Anthracite have to say on the issues of climate and energy production, as they have proven themselves to be honest, reliable, well-sourced and reasonable. This new guy, not so much.

Oh, this was good, too:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh, dalmuti, you so funny!

Me, not agreeing with the scientific process. Oh, heavens, I just might burst my appendix laughing.

pldennison-

“I’d trust pretty much anything that our SDMB friends jshore and Anthracite have to say on the issues of climate and energy production, as they have proven themselves to be honest, reliable, well-sourced and reasonable. This new guy, not so much.”

This “new guy” didn’t write the Warning To Humanity. He just provided a link.

"“Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo, it is not sufficient for you to be persecuted by an unjust majority – you must also be right.” "

This is merely rhetoric. You failed to address my point, and acknowledge the absurdity/irrelevance of the “Doyle believing in faeries” example to this topic.

You’ve also failed to actually mention anything at all on topic.

You’d believe two people on a message board more than 1700 accredited scientists?

Also, Richard Scary and the aforementioned Doyle are not scientists. Obviously you wouldn’t go looking to them for scientific advice.

"Remember, a million people can believe in a bad idea, and that doesn’t make it any less bad."

So you’re actually saying that thse 1700 scientists’ ideas are bad?

Oh, and thanks for brining up the vegetarian/vegan issue. Completely off topic. If a million doctors and studies said “meat is good”, most vegetarian would rethink their choices. But, fact is, that most doctors and dieticians are saying “meat is bad.”

We’re not talking about just anyone believing anything. We’re talking about informed people making informed decisions based on studies, which are modeled after the scientific model. (In both the Global Warming debate, and the vegetarian debate.)

I Hope your appendix is well and good,

TGD

Thanks just a ton for your spirited defense of arguments from authority, TGD.

Now perhaps you could show that all members of the Union of Concerned Scientists are in fact scientists (hint - they aren’t), and that all the Nobel laureates who signed onto your petition are Nobel laureates in meteorology or climate change (another hint - they aren’t), or other reasons why we need to simply take it on trust that they know better than we do - after all, they won Nobel prizes, and are therefore “Sir Oracle - when I ope my lips, let no dog bark” - Merchant of Venice.

Then we can all agree that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites - William Shockley said so, and he was a Nobel Prize Winner, so he must have been right. And vitamin C will cure every ailment the flesh is heir to, right? Linus Pauling said so, and so it must be true, right?

Or maybe you and and our latest troll are talking out of an orifice more generally reserved for other purposes than speech, right?

Regards,
Shodan

Most? I’d like a cite on that, please.

And you’re still taking potshots at what you perceive my position to be, despite the fact that I have not stated one. See – and this may come as a shock – some of us here, even those of us with lots of posts – read threads without posting to them, unless we see something that we feel compelled to remark on. And I would feel compelled to remark on a comment like, “You should believe X because 1,700 really smart people believe X,” whatever the topic was and whether I agreed with X or not. The appeal to authority is one of the most fundamentally weak tactics around.

Here’s another newsflash: Nobel Prize winners and Ph.Ds are not immune to being hornswoggled or from believing in stupid things. Not that I’m claiming that the signatories to this particular report are hornswoggled, but a Nobel Prize itself does not confer upon the honoree a mystical ability to always be correct.

In a nutshell, once again, an idea is true based on whether the evidence supports the idea’s conclusions. An idea is not true simply because a large number of well-educated people happen to believe it.

Most? I’d like a cite on that, please.

And you’re still taking potshots at what you perceive my position to be, despite the fact that I have not stated one. See – and this may come as a shock – some of us here, even those of us with lots of posts – read threads without posting to them unless we see something that we feel compelled to remark on. And I would feel compelled to remark on a comment like, “You should believe X because 1,700 really smart people believe X,” whatever the topic was and whether I agreed with X or not. The appeal to authority is one of the most fundamentally weak tactics around.

Here’s another newsflash: Nobel Prize winners and Ph.Ds are not immune to being hornswoggled or from believing in stupid things. Not that I’m claiming that the signatories to this particular report are hornswoggled, but a Nobel Prize itself does not confer upon the honoree a mystical ability to always be correct.

In a nutshell, once again, an idea is true based on whether the evidence supports the idea’s conclusions. An idea is not true simply because a large number of well-educated people happen to believe it.

As far as my own feelings on the OP, I am disinclined to listen to Chicken Littles and neo-Malthusians simply because they have so often been shown to be wrong. I agree with certain particulars about how we should conduct our energy policy (although I enjoy watching the Greens turn pale when we point to Europe’s long, unproblematic success with nuclear power), and I’m well-versed enough concerning the Shell Nigeria controversy that I’ve boycotted Shell Oil products for the last three years. But sweeping, world-changing, “new paradigm” statements? No thanks.

Most? I’d like a cite on that, please.

And you’re still taking potshots at what you perceive my position to be, despite the fact that I have not stated one. See – and this may come as a shock – some of us here, even those of us with lots of posts – read threads without posting to them unless we see something that we feel compelled to remark on. And I would feel compelled to remark on a comment like, “You should believe X because 1,700 really smart people believe X,” whatever the topic was and whether I agreed with X or not. The appeal to authority is one of the most fundamentally weak tactics around.

Here’s another newsflash: Nobel Prize winners and Ph.Ds are not immune to being hornswoggled or from believing in stupid things. Not that I’m claiming that the signatories to this particular report are hornswoggled, but a Nobel Prize itself does not confer upon the honoree a mystical ability to always be correct.

In a nutshell, once again, an idea is true based on whether the evidence supports the idea’s conclusions. An idea is not true simply because a large number of well-educated people happen to believe it.

As far as my own feelings on the OP, I am disinclined to listen to Chicken Littles and neo-Malthusians simply because they have so often been shown to be wrong. I agree with certain particulars about how we should conduct our energy policy (although I enjoy watching the Greens turn pale when we point to Europe’s long, unproblematic success with nuclear power), and I’m well-versed enough concerning the Shell Nigeria controversy that I’ve boycotted Shell Oil products for the last three years. But sweeping, world-changing, “new paradigm” statements? No thanks.