The implications of hell.

Not all religions teach that there is a place of eternal suffering for those who fail to maintain their moral or religious obligations. And even for religions that generally do, there are sects that do not. But there are very popular religions, and dominant sects within those religions, who believe that those who are not righteous in the eyes of their god will suffer for it endlessly.

Let’s examine for a moment what hell is. Hell is infinite suffering. Suffering beyond what the human mind can begin to comprehend. You can compare it to any finite suffering, and it dwarfs it, by an infinite amount, as is the nature of finite numbers versus infinities.

Try to imagine, as best you can, the entirety of the suffering of the human race since we became self aware. Billions of people, each with their own history of suffering. Everyone who slowly starved to death. Every painful disease. Every time someone stubbed their toe. Every hardship suffered by men during battle. Everyone’s first teenage breakup. Every person eaten alive by a wild animal. Everyone who worked a job they hated all their lives. Everyone who was sad that everyone forgot their birthday. Every pain, every heartbreak, every toil, every sadness. The combined suffering of billions of lifetimes. Try to comprehend the enormity of that.

That suffering, that you just tried to imagine, is infinitely small compared to the suffering that those who believe in hell is inflicted upon every individual who fails their god’s test. Imagine that suffering times a thousand. A million. A billion. It is still infinitely small, incomprehensibly small, compared to the idea of eternal suffering. The entirety of human suffering is the tiniest pinprick compared to hell.

And yet some significant fraction of humanity - probably the majority - believes that some significant other portion of humanity will undergo this fate.

And not only do they fail to go insane from the belief that billions of people are suffering to such a great extent that it’s incomprehensible to the human mind, there are many people who actually revel in this. It’s not a horrible drawback of their religious beliefs, but a perk. People will take satisfaction from the idea that those who have wronged them in some way will one day get their comeuppance and suffer eternally. People will wish other people to “go to hell” - and I don’t mean in a flippant, colloquial way, but a genuine desire to have that person suffer that fate.

No person who ever lived could possibly be sufficiently evil as to justify eternal torment. Not even close. Whatever wrongs and evils those people inflicted, they were finite, and could not possibly justify infinite punishment.

Ironically, the most evil thing you could do would be to cause another person to go to hell. Since we’ve established that it would trump the entirety of human suffering, then causing someone to falter, or failing to save someone, that resulted in them going to hell, would be more evil than personally inflicting any finite amount of suffering. You could murder a million babies with your bare hands (assuming they get some sort of reprieve from hell), and it wouldn’t be as bad as causing one person to commit some minor sin that ultimately made them fail their god’s test and have them sent to hell. Forever is incomprehensibly bigger than anything you could do in your lifetime, even if it was your goal to inflict as much suffering as you possibly could during it.

Imagine a mother who loved their child as much as anyone has ever loved anyone else. That person is willing to sacrifice everything for their child, to do anything to try to improve that child’s life. And that child, somewhere in adulthood, or whatever you consider to be the age of reason, dies. And the mother either knows that the child failed god’s test - perhaps by not belonging to her religion at all - or suspects it’s possible. That mother would’ve given up anything to save that child - she would’ve thrown herself in front of a bear if need be - and now that person that she so completely loved could potentially be suffering in a way beyond anything he could on Earth, and there would never be an end to it. This woman should be driven immediately insane. Unable to function at all. Completely overcome by anxiety and grief. It should break her.

We can all understand the great bond and love between a parent and their child, so I used that analogy to resonate emotionally. But that anyone should suffer that fate, let alone a significant portion of the billions of people have ever lived, should deeply disturb anyone. Most people don’t have the stomach to watch someone else being tortured for even a few minutes. And yet so many people are content with the idea that not only are so many people suffering far greater fates now, but many or most of those living currently and who will ever live will join them. And that suffering will never end. In anything but the most callous sociopath, this should instill, at the very least, a deep unease, possibly a complete mental break.

If there are people who truly believe that this is the result of failing their god’s test, they should spend the entirety of their lives not only following every possible rule they feel that god is testing them with, but spending every waking moment trying to cause other people to do the same.

It’s ironic that people will praise moderately religious people, the ones who keep to themselves and don’t bother you. But the reality is - if you believe that unless saved, every human suffers this fate, your overriding goal should be spending your entire lives saving people. Those who preach the hardest are the only decent people. Every person you save is someone spared from infinite punishment.

The people who believe their religion but don’t push it on you are doing you the most grave disservice possible. They are cavalier about the possibility of you suffering infinite punishment. They are, at best, callous sociopaths, with such disregard for humanity that they passively allow people to undergo this fate.

Similarly, in their own affairs, it is utterly insane to give in to any sort of mortal temptation. Your short trial in life, measured in the minuscule time frame of a human lifetime, is utterly inconsequential compared to your fate in eternity. If you told someone that if they cheated on their wife, they’d be caught and subjected to a year of horrible physical torture, it would probably discourage them from even thinking about it. But when they’re faced with an omnipotent and omnipresent god, who they know they can’t fool, and there’s no chance they get away with it without being caught, with a punishment more than a trillion trillion trillion times greater than a year of horrible torture, they still often cave in to temptation. If someone was sitting there with a car battery to your nuts saying “don’t touch that cupcake”, you wouldn’t touch that cupcake. And yet faced with an infinitely greater punishment with a guarantee that you would be caught, people succumb.

If you truly believe that failing your god’s test will result in this fate, you would live your life in a dedication of god and his rules that rival any monk’s. You would, if you were a decent person, live your life trying to desperately save anyone else you could from this fate, because if you could save just one person, you would prevent more suffering than you could ever comprehend. And yet people don’t.

Why? These are the potential conclusions:

  1. People are so callous to the suffering of others that they can function in light of the fact that they believe many of them will suffer this fate, and many are so evil that they would actually take satisfaction that this fate is inflicted upon those who they judge unworthy. This is so casual, and yet so much more evil than anything inflicted by anyone who ever lived.

  2. People are so compartmentalized that they don’t really form a psyche in a complete whole. They can take these beliefs - these beliefs that are so important that they should dictate every waking thought, and guide their every action - and simply ignore them when convenient.

“Haven’t really thought about it” is not a valid excuse here. Whether or not you pass god’s test, and whether you could help others do the same, is the only thing that could matter in your mortal life, everything else is trivial in comparison. If this, logically, should be by far your most pressing concern, and yet during your whole life you never bothered to think about it, your psyche is not a complete whole.

The actions and thoughts of these people simply don’t make sense. You cannot simultaneously believe “eating that cupcake gets me eternal punishment” and “I think I’m going to eat that cupcake” - so if you do indeed hold those beliefs, your personality is essentially a mish mash of conflicting ideas that don’t interact with each other.

  1. People don’t really believe this shit. I think to some degree compartmentalization plays a role in this. They essentially only believe it enough to scratch whatever psychological itch they need scratched. They pick and choose which of their god’s rules really count based on their own biases and willingness to sacrifice. They realize on some level that this makes their beliefs bullshit, but they never have the fortitude to admit it. It’s too easy socially and psychologically to maintain the belief that, on some level, they realize is bullshit. And so they choose to tell themselves they believe it - and when it’s psychologically convenient, perhaps they think they really do.

And yes, I know you can say “oh, my religion doesn’t believe in hell” or something like that. It doesn’t matter. The fact is that there are lots of people who do, and those are the people we’re discussing. Such anecdotes are irrelevant to the discussion.

Frankly, it was the hell concept (specifically as suggested by the movie Ghost) that cemented my atheism.

I made this point to some degree, but to clarify the point:

When dealing with a religion that deals with a judgement, and an afterlife with infinite reward vs infinite punishment, the most religious people are the most sane of the religious people. Your beliefs are extreme - your time on Earth is nothing compared to your time in eternity. Your entire life should be lived doing everything you possibly can to ensure that you pass god’s test. You should be fully justified - and not only that, obligated - to carry out what you thought to be your god’s commands with every waking thought and every waking moment.

The moderately religious are far less sane. They acknowledge the stakes, and yet act as if they aren’t a big deal. This is a course of action that is simply not based in logic or sanity and is incredibly risky and callous.

So those annoying, very religious people who won’t stop hassling you about trying to save you? You should probably be grateful, their heart is in the right place, they’re trying to do the kindest thing for you that they can. Conversely, people who should care about you, and who have these beliefs, making a mere token effort to save you if at all? You should wonder why they hold the possibility of you being tortured eternally in such disregard.

And if you are a person who’s reading this who holds such beliefs, why are you not incredibly anguished with the knowledge of so much suffering going on right now and forever? Why aren’t you spending your life doing everything you can to save anyone you can?

I know there will be people who will post stuff like, “Not all Believers believe in that kind of hell!” But I know one who does. My father.

One day he pulled me aside apropos of nothing and told me that he knows God will spare my agnostic soul because he regularly beseeches God on my behalf, and since he’s going to heaven, he figures God owes him a favor. His belief that I’m not going to hell because of his faithfulness is the only way he’s able to sleep at night, according to him.

I didn’t say anything disrespectful in response, as it was obvious he was as serious as a heart attack. But what I really wanted to say was WTF DADDY!!!.

My father is one of the most devote, faithful, religious people I know. He loves God more than he loves BBQ ribs, and that’s saying something. But I don’t understand how he can love something that would cast one of his own children–a child who has never committed a crime and tries to lives a life of simplicity and peaceful coexistence with others–to an eternity of horrible suffering. If God decides to ignore his pleas and he does send me to hell, will my father still continue to love this monster? Just how enjoyable can heaven be, knowing that many of the people you loved back on Earth are screaming and gnashing their teeth forever and ever?

Proselytizers justify their obnoxious behavior by claiming they are trying to save souls from going to hell. So there are indeed people who think about this kind of thing. I have more respect for believers who try to make life on Earth easier for others. The suffering of our Earthly existence is what causes us to do “wrong”. Take away the suffering here, and maybe there will be fewer people who seem destined for hell.

You seem to be assuming that ‘preaching hard’ would be an effective strategy. Is it though?

If trying really hard to convert people actually turns more people away, then I would be the wrong strategy, would it not?

I’ve asked several devout Christians (including a Chaplain i.e. English Priest) what would happen in these two situations:

  • genocidal maniac genuinely converts to Christianity on his death-bed
  • pleasant atheist dies (denying Jesus as there’s no evidence of God)

According to all of them, the genocidal maniac goes straight to Heaven and the pleasant atheist goes straight to Hell.
Apparently it’s not about your deeds, but whether you truly believe in God.

Wow. :smack:

Where would the ascended Buddha master go-the one who has utterly transcended such dualistic concepts in the first place? :confused:

Straight to Hell.

Those who actively advocate for eternal punishment of others in hell, are rarely genuine in wanting to save anyone from going to hell and are all to eager in explaining precisely why they’ll be going to hell. Apocryphally speaking, enlightening the “ignorant savage” about why he’ll end up in hell is a good example of these exact motives.

Christians do insist on the fact that causing someone to falter is the worst you can possibly do :

[QUOTE=Matthew 18:7]
woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
[/QUOTE]

And some are indeed terrified by the fate of their loved ones.

But I think the vast majority of people compartementalize and also just don’t measure the true extent of what they nominally believe in.

And I think the vast majority of Christians don’t really believe in what you described in your OP to begin with. They believe in a more lenient version of hell (eg separation from god) or that only the truly depraved will go there (Hitler will, but not their heathen but otherwise nice relatives).

But the argument in the OP (seems to me) amounts to “If you were sincere about this, you would be panicking”. I think that’s an inherently false idea.

If you knew that the brakes in a family member’s car were damaged and definitely would not work, but that family member didn’t believe you when you told them, how far would you go to stop them from getting into that vehicle and driving off?

Is that a useful analogy? I don’t find it so. You can physically restrain a person from getting into a car, bit you cannot force a person to believe something (and attempting to do so is often directly countereffective)

The folks we’re talking about may believe that they have been charged with responsibility, but may also trust that God is in control.

Panic is very often simply not the most productive mode of operation, in any context.

I said nothing about panic being the only method, but surely if you believed a loved one was headed for an eternal Hell you would make every possible effort to convert that loved one. Likewise, if you were unsuccessful in converting said loved one before death arrived, how could you not spend every single day thinking about your loved one suffering in Hell for all eternity? How could any religionist that believed in an eternal Hell and believed that some of their loved ones didn’t pass muster not constantly grieve for them?

I imagine in the same way that people grieve for loved ones who abuse alcohol or drugs. There’s only so much you can do to keep some people from hurting themselves.

I actually don’t have a problem understanding why a family member wouldn’t do everything in their power to convert a loved one. You could convert someone by brainwashing them, but then you’d be removing their free will. That’s a big no-no in the Christian faith.

What I don’t understand is why the notion of hell does not make even followers terrified. They are told that God will not cast them into the fiery cauldron as long as they believe in his son. But how does a follower know that their belief actually measures up? I’d be terrified that having any doubt, no matter how small, would make me eligible for hell. Or that at any moment, God could decide to change his mind about the forgiveness thing and go back to the Old Testament way of doing things. I don’t understand why there is so much trust for an entity who has absolutely no incentive to hold up his end of the bargain and has demonstrated repeatedly that he is capable of changing his mind.

And yet my father is so confident he is going to heaven, despite demonstrating a lifetime of questionable behavior. Maybe he feels like his confidence is a testament to his strong belief. But it strikes me as arrogance…as if he believe that he, rather than God, has the last word on his worthiness.

Non-eternal versions of Hell where you do your time and the sin is burned away and you can advance up the cosmic ladder sit better with me. If I was making my own mythos I’d opt for that version.

The whole life-death-reward chain raises the big question: what’s the point of it? God creates humans, there’s a judgment day, and then all human souls are either in hell, heaven, or purgatory for the next trillion years. Why? What was the point of the short lived Earthly morality play? Did God do it for da lulz?

What about Heaven? Everyone is happy and content basking in God’s radiance. So, do people there have free will or not? Whatever you answer, why can’t God apply that to Earth?

Redemption. By the grace of God you can be saved from the consequences of any horrible action. That is how the faithful deal with it. In the mind of many there is plenty of wiggle room too, I think it’s a strawman to proclaim believers think they need to follow their particular book to the letter to avoid hell.

The faith must be taught. No child is born Christian, they must be brought to Christianity. They seem cool with that, however.

So very true, which is why I roll my eyes at the “we can all choose to believe” stuff. But I guess someone could argue that while you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink. If you’ve brought up a child to believe and they can’t or won’t, then there’s nothing left for you besides brainwashing them. And God don’t want his chilluns brainwashed.

I think that’s why my own father is so torn up inside. He and my mother did their damndest to inculcate their children, and it didn’t take in three out of four of them. It must really bother them to see all the kids I went to Sunday School with still going to church and being “obedient”. If I were in their shoes, I know I’d be blaming myself somehow, which is why I sympathize (somewhat) with my father. However, I’d like to think the social activist in me would not be satisfied with a waiver just for my children. I’d ask God to spare all his children from hell, regardless of whether they have parents to vouch for them. That would be the sanest response, short of hating God for creating this ridiculous situation in the first place.