The Iraq War in retrospect: Victory on almost all fronts

That was the fantasy of the Wolfowitz term paper, but it was never really true.

No realistic person (and no one posting to this thread) would describe Hussein as anything other than a thug. Nevertheless, in Iraq prior to March, 2003, women attended universities and ran their own businesses and Jews and Christians lived in the country without any more fear than their Muslim neighbnors. Since our idiotic invasion, women have lost most of their rights (in reality even if not on paper) and the non-Muslim citizens have been forced to flee the sectarian violence we introduced to the country.

We “didn’t know” that a thug who had demonstrated a ruthless policy of extermination toward all his internal “foes” and who had launched a war of aggression against a neighbor that had not threatened him, employing weapons banned by all civilized nations for over 80 years in the prosecution of his war, might decide to use those same weapons against his own people after we rashly advised them to rise up in rebellion while declining to offer them any support?
More fools, we, then.

The “coalition of the willing” was no more real than the Weapons of Mass Destruction in the fall of 2002. The “coalition” was a hodgepodge of nations we had bribed into joining (e.g. Poland who wanted our money and military support), and nations we had coerced into “joining” with threats of lost trade privileges (e.g., Micronesia, Marshall Islands), or with threats of sanctions as “supporters of terror” (e.g., Eritrea, Azerbaijan).

There is no indication that Iraq is “becoming a stable country.” To the extent that some internecine fighting has fallen off, it is the result of ongoing ethnic cleansing that reduces the target of local violence with local hotspots held in check by massive U.S. Army coverage–coverage that we cannot maintain indefinitely. The Parliament has failed to address a single major piece of legislation to deal with the actual conditions of the country. al-Maliki, having bought the leadership by outbidding/outbribing Allawi, spends half his time telling the U.S. how much he appreciates their efforts and the other half of his time telling his fellow Shi’a that the U.S. will not be allowed to remain in Iraq while condemning the U.S. for protecting Sunni neighborhoods from attacks by Shi’a insurgents and militia. If that is stability, the Pacific is the greatest desert in the world.

Except in passing, “what should we do now”?" is not the topic of this thread. You started out with bold (false) claims of victory everywhere we look. You are now reduced to saying “Well, we screwed this up pretty badly; we can’t leave now.” I take that as a serous admission that the OP was just so much neo-con, Bush Administration posturing that has been overwhelmingly destroyed by the facts.

:dubious: John, the very idea that this Board is important and influential enough in the Cybersphere that dishonest political operatives would use it as an infection vector for e-viral agitprop is so utterly validating to all Dopers’ proud sense of Netgeek identity that any heretic who expresses doubt should be [GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION OF TORTURE AND EXECUTION WITHDRAWN ON LEGAL ADVICE].

Saddam wasn’t a threat to the U.S. He may have been noisy, but Saddam was all bark with no bite. Economic sanctions and strategic strikes against Iraq’s infrastructure during Desert Fox severely weakened, almost toppled, Saddam. He asserted the little power he had left to irritate the U.S. and maintain a level of pride and dignity in front of his people. The reality is the U.S. containment policy in Iraq was working extremely well. Invading Iraq was unnecessary and justified with false intelligence and a flawed ideology.

The real militant threat was never in Iraq. The Bush administration has managed to add instability to an already precarious region, strengthen militant groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan, while insulting and completely decimating any hope for a beneficial relationship with Iran. WTG!

The astronomical debt mounting because of this war, and the crony capitalism that flourishes in the private war machine should be the only reason needed to end this atrocious chapter in U.S history. Remember, Bush is fighting Iraq with borrowed money. America doesn’t have anymore money.

I want my country back. I only hope it is repairable.

Afghanistan has an abundance of natural gas. The country is also situated in a strategic geographic location needed for a successful Central Asia Gas Pipeline, an idea recently revived.

That’s the spirit! At last you’re starting to see how it’s done. Of course the Iraq war is a huge success! America’s actions have been totally justified. And there is simply no reliable evidence that the Pacific basin contains water. Camel caravans routinely ply the ancient trade route from Hawaii to Los Angeles. Oh sure, occasionally people THINK they see water out there… have you never heard of a MIRAGE? And where do mirages happen? The desert. Such hallucinations are common in extremely arid regions like Iraq and the Pacific, and are caused by constant exposure to the intense cold and darkness of the sun’s rays.

The hell? How much does a civil liberty sell for these days? How does fishing Bin Laden out of Pakistan compare to the greed of Haliburton? For that matter, how does worrying about whether my great-grandchildren can afford to eat after paying their taxes compare to the greed of Haliburton? I don’t know what a clue costs, but I’ll be glad to loan you the money to buy one.

How about just addressing this one: where the hell is Osama Bin Laden, and why isn’t he in a US jail awaiting trial? Victory my ass.

That’s what makes it a conspiracy theory!

No, that is the point.

I didn’t imply he was insane. I didn’t ask for evidence because none was presented. I responded to what was given to us-- nothing, by the standards of this forum.

Happy New Year!

Little bit of a verbal bait and switch there: what he “increasingly characterized himself as” doesn’t mean anything. Iraq was still pretty much secular.

That’s the first time I’ve heard the former accusation. Even if it’s true, I don’t think it compares to the nationwide reversals on women’s rights that are going on, and will go on in a more religious government.

Thank goodness the invasion brought them back to life. :stuck_out_tongue:

A ridiculous comment. He was a monster back then, too. You’ll notice nobody over here really cared about those gassings until 2002, when they happened 15 years earlier.

Thank goodness we’ve turned a corner and the insurgency is in its last throes. I eagerly await the rose petals.

Well, that’s funny because I have read news articles reporting on the U.S. military’s own focus groups in Iraq and they say something quite different:

On a humorous note, where I first heard about this survey on NPR’s “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me” news quiz show, the folks on the show had a great time imagining the sort of typical focus-group questions that might have been asked, e.g., “If you were to be occupied again in the future, would you choose the U.S. as your occupying power” or “Would you recommend the U.S. as an occupying power to your friends?”

You know, there isn’t some global conservation law on the number of terrorists in the world. In fact, while zero Iraqis were terrorists involved in 9/11, we now have plenty of Iraqi terrorists attacking us in Iraq. Those are terrorists that we have created.

The Bush policy seems to be to try to create new terrorists faster than they can be destroyed. And, it is working admirably.

This is one of the most morally monstrous posts I have ever read in GD. Do you realize what you are saying? By conservative estimates, 600,000+ Iraqi civilians have died as a direct result of our invasion. But what the hell–war sucks. After all, what’s a million or so Iraqis vs. a few thousand American civilians? They’re only sand niggers, after all–it must take several hundred of them to equal one American life, surely!

I agree. Glad someone took him to task for it.

I would have…but I didn’t for reasons that don’t belong in this forum.

Thanks all the same.

Yeah, wow, I missed that one.

It’s definitely hell when somebody else trashes your country for reasons that have nothing to do with you. I hope you’ll keep this in mind if it ever happens where you’re living. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness. “Sorry you lost your home, and your friends and relatives either got killed by terrorists or became terrorists and got killed, but we needed to have a war someplace and this looked like a good spot. No hard feelings?”

Yeah but we’re kickin’ Ass so it’s all ok and tough luck for them? Right? :rolleyes:

Not to put too fine a point on it, in the past five or six years we have passed into an era in which moral monstrousness is accepted by far too many of our fellow citizens. Were it not for that acceptance how could we tolerate a regime under which the President assumed the power to transform what would be otherwise criminal defendants or prisoners of war into some variety of outlaw by his mere edict? How otherwise would we seriously debate the propriety of torture and the use of evidence obtained by torture in some sort of bizarre charade of a legal process? If not for that acceptance how could a recognized candidate for President advocate the expansion of extra-legal prisons?

As far as the invasion of Iraq goes, our President and all the noise making machinery under his control were arguing that Iraq and Saddam had lethal chemical weapons and biological agents (not unlikely) and were on the verge of having a credible nuclear armory, that Iraq and Saddam were in bed with Osama BenLadden and were about to give Osama’s organization the means to use NBC weapons against the US, Israel, Western Europe and Lord knows who else. The President’s people were talking about mushroom shaped clouds and our Secretary of State was in front of the UN flashing photos of what he swore were nuclear bunkers and lethal gas making machines. Unless we acted quickly the hour of reckoning was upon us, said our President and all his people. Remember, our President said, I have access to all sorts of secret information and all this stuff is true.

In the face of all that and the specter of the collapse of the World Trade Center is it any surprise that few Congressmen were willing to stand up on their hind legs and denounce the President as a lying SOB or his claims of danger to be balderdash? To make it all the worse, as my friend from Nipples notes, the President and his people were giving Congress some cover by claiming that he needed a Congressional resolution to strengthen his hand in negotiating Saddam’s abandonment of his evil intent and capability, and that going to war was the last thing he had in mind.

It did not take long to figure out that we had been sold a bill of goods, but by that time the bill had been sold and our soldiers, Marines, sailors and aircrews were on the ground in Iraq in a very real fire fight. To argue now that Congress was some how culpable for not seeing through the President’s parsed phrases, weasel words and misrepresentations seem disingenuous.

The real question lies in figuring out how we are going to disengage from this tar baby in Iraq while going back and finishing the job we abandon in Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan. Arguing about who led us into Iraq just distracts from the real challenge.

So, basically, I think we are agreed that ManiacMan’s justification for the war is morally reprehensible if it were even correct and, worse than that, it is not even correct…which makes it even more morally reprehensible because we are doing these monstrous things without even gaining the supposed benefit. (Or, maybe in a sense it is a little less morally reprehensible…but more pathetic… since we are hurting ourselves too?)

By the way, ManiacMan, do you realize that we are doing all this because of a cost in innocent American civilian lives that is so far less than 1% the number of innocent American civilian lives that have been lost to automoble accidents over the last decade? Maybe we should just start shooting and torturing automobile executives?

How do you know that there weren’t any AQ in Iraq before we invaded it? For me that sounds much more unreasonable than assuming that there was for some reason…

I see the Taliban and AQ as one entity, but maybe others don’t? Didn’t the coalition completely kick the shit out of AQ and the Taliban? Its almost like Afganistan ran out of AQ agents…by the time they realized what hit them and finished licking their wounds to figure out a strategy the battle field had changed to Iraq.

Pentagon report debunks prewar Iraq-Al Qaeda connection

How can all that natural gas be sent anywhere? There isn’t a pipeline yet and there is no mention anywhere that Afganistan’s natural gas will be delivered anywhere. It’s actually Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan that are expected to be sending their natural gas anywhere.

Well you are the one who mentioned the cost of the war in terms of your wallet…

Why didn’t Clinton get OBL? He had the oppurtunity didn’t he???