Hey, I like good propaganda as much as the next guy, I admire craftsmanship in all its many forms. But it is what it is. You can blubber away at what the picture “means” to you, but it means d for diddly squat: it is a picture of woman making the “v” sign with one finger stained.
It may be that yesterday marks an epochal turning point in the history of the ME, or it may simply be another clumsy lurch in a international adventure notable mostly for an avalanche of lies and mendacity. I could just as reasonably offer a picture of an entirely empty polling station as being representative of the truth.
You slug down a cup of the brown kool-aid, and declare that its root beer, and its yummy. I’m not having any, thank you very much. But your faith that this bit of propaganda is the truth is nothing more than that: faith. You’re welcome to it, of course.
…so you freely admit to breaching your non-disclosure statement to prove a point on a message board? Well done. I worked for a time as Functions Manager at Parliament, learned many a thing that could have won me a debate on a message board, but chose never to reveal it. You freely admit that you signed a non-disclosure statement, and that news barely left the squadron- and then expect that myself, RTFirefly , and others should know about it? Please tell me, according to the public record, if anything that RTFirefly has stated is incorrect?
Lets see, name one good thing to come from the US invasion to the Iraqi people, it doesn’t matter if you think the whole thing was a disaster, theres one good thing at least for them to have experienced. Don’t try and avoid the question by saying ‘oh they found a whole new reason to hate us etc’ bullshit, I wanna know one positive thing the Iraqis have gained, and which is to a benefit to the US Administration as well.
I’m asking because not once have I heard you say anything good come from Iraq, anything at all, talk about objective analysis :rolleyes:
High Cheese, can you confirm that the plane was in fact shot down, not crashed due to mechanical or pilot failure? There’s no good reason we wouldn’t have been told about a confirmed cause.
I’m concerned that there are so many stories about the high turnout, a great day for democracy, Bush is vindicated, etc. but with footnotes at best noting that that’s only true for the Shiites and Kurds. Sunni turnout has been briefly mentioned as near negligible. Some of us expected that, as the long-oppressed groups use whatever approach is available to gain the upper hand, while the Sunnis look at it as simply an institutionalization of their own pending subjugation.
If that’s true, it underscores the, well, apprehension many of us have felt about the long-term effects here. The election might well prove to exacerbate ethnic tensions and be a step toward the civil war we all fear. Those tensions have in no way been eased by this.
As much as I appreciate the back-handed compliment offered, I must decline. Thousands of innocent lives have been squandered in this arrogant adventure, an adventure justified on the basis of disinformation. I see nothing here to be moderate about.
Bush is wrong regardless of whether Iraq “succeeds” or not. If, hypothetically, Iraq is able to recover from the invasion that does not mean the invasion was justified. Bush is still a lying, crimina, warmonger either way.
It’s really cute that so many people seem to be buying into this cute little staged “election,” by the way. It’s the same people who thought the toppling of the Saddam statue was a spontaneous act by the Iraqis.
It is a source of concern. However, I wonder how much of the low Sunni turnout is because of philosophical opposition to the elections or because of the extreeme threats of violence in those areas. From what I’ve read a lot of Sunni’s wish they could participate but don’t feel safe enough for that.
That holds a bit of a promise for future political engagement once the violence is under control.
So, the US wanted appointed caucuses to determine the country’s future, and the shiites (via Sistani) insisted on direct elections, counter to US aims. In what way is that different than what I wrote?
All our conjectures suffer the same limitation: all sources of information are compromised by the agendas of the sources. Elections are a function of democracy, but they are not magical, they have no divine sources of power. It was not so long ago that these very same people were declaring that the “handover of soveriegnty” was an epochal moment, a huge turning point, etc. etc.
Elections could solve Iraq’s troubles if the troubles were caused by a lack of elections. I see no reason to believe this.
It’s just that you’ve always been reasonable, at worst remaining silent when someone with an opposing view has made a good point. Now it appears that you can’t separate the election from the US admin’s policies or a victory for Iraq from a victory for Bush. I for one think it’s a perfectly valid position to be against the war and against Bush’s policies and yet still view the election coverage as something more than propaganda and the results as something more than lies and coercion. Personally, I think it makes any opposition to the war all the more valid. You’ve said that the 'lies and death,etc." are nothing to be moderate about and I agree with you, which is why I find your immoderation at the election coverage/results all the more bewildering. And you couldn’t “just as reasonably offer a picture of an entirely empty polling station as being representative of the truth.” An empty polling station does not represent the overall “truth” of the day as long as at least 50% of the Iraqis have showed up (and those are high standards). Regardless of how you feel about Bush et al, you can at least celebrate the bravery of a woman who defied the will of someone who had threatened her with dismemberment. She certainly seems happy with the idea of voting.
Christ elucidator – the picture is all “propaganda” now? I also noticed that you were the first to bring the ‘good news’ to this thread that voter turn out wasn’t 70% but 60%. Good for you. And – if that how you see it, you’re welcome to it, of course. And you’re right, we don’t know where this free election will lead Iraq – not you – not me. We just know the terrorists didn’t win on election day - and maybe some others. Yet, this picture is “propaganda” rather than a representation of brave women in a culture that doesn’t always support it’s women ---- nor is it a representation of personal bravery in the face of real terrorist threats — nor is it even remotely a represenation of the selflessness it must take to vote under those circumstances, nor a representation of the selflessness and supreme bravery it took for those few who voted in cities like like Fallujah and Mosul. Nope, it’s just a woman ‘with one stained finger.’ Fine. But like I said – it’s your head and your world – call it what you want.
For those who want to lurk outside of the inbred opinion at Staightdope – here’s are links to some Iraqi bloggers in Iraq and what those bloggers are saying about Iraq and the Iraqi election. Take a breath and then take a look at what they have to say.