To venture an explanation to the hatred the Jews have faced through the centuries this has been said:
-They are a community that rarely mixes with the local populace. they strictly adhere to their norms and credos and always stand out.
-Moreover, they are money lenders are very strict when it come to moolah (remember shylock?) And were hated for this
-They are hard working and prosper wherever they go.
All this put together has, through the centuries, led to the persecution of Jews in every country and under every king’s rule. They were often not allowed to own land or business establishments even under kings known for their generosity. They were often blamed for calamities and disasters
Ironically it was only under the ottoman (Islamic) rule that Jews enjoyed the most freedom. Jews were respected for their business sense and were allowed to freely own and operate businesses. It is saddening to see these two communities shedding each other’s blood today.
ITs a waste of time is what it is. IF there was ever anything holy About that city or those lands it has long since been washed away in rivers of blood and hatred.
Fortunately, Yahweh and Allah don’t have a problem with that. The Old Testament is full of verses where God instructs the Jews to go kill people. Don’t have a working knowledge of the Qur’an, but I’d bet there are quite a few instances in there as well.
Apparently murdering people for God is quite a holy act.
It’s a shame ‘He’ doesn’t perform the act himself since he quite emphatically told people not to in the ten commendments. I never understood the logic there.
Did everyone else get a copy with the word “NOT” omitted? Should I be boning my neighbor’s wife if I want to get to Heaven? Damn! I’m starting to like religion a little more now that I understand it better!
Oh hey, that’s great! I guess in that case, “He” wouldn’t mind if we weren’t so consistent in following all those rules then, eh? Lest he wish to be judged a hypocrite as well.
Hey LokiTheDog, feel free to shag whomever you wish… seems God’s cool with an occasional bending of the standards.
In the example you gave, Jews prospered under Ottoman rule. However, what’s going on now isn’t between Jews and Turks, but Jews and Arabs, so it’s not that ironic.
To venture an explanation to the hatred the Jews have faced through the centuries this has been said:
-They are a community that rarely mixes with the local populace. they strictly adhere to their norms and credos and always stand out. *
Maybe that’s because for centuries they were **forced **to live apart and forbidden from mixing with the local populace. This is probably the strongest reason that Judaism has persisted through centuries of persecution, when other creeds may have become assimilated or extinct.
-Moreover, they are money lenders are very strict when it come to moolah (remember shylock?) And were hated for this.
Again, a catch-22 situation. One of the few occupations open was money-lending, as Jews were forbidden from owning land (can’t be a farmer), or joining a trade guild (can’t be much of anything else). They could lend money however. The old testament prohibits Jews from charging interest from other jews. Gentiles, however were another kettle of fish. Furthermore, when your village could be put to the torch at any moment, when you could be expelled from wherever you lived, carrying just the shirt on your back, you tend to keep your money is things that are small, transportable, and readily exchanged. The image of the Jew as a money-worshipping parasite arose as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
After re-reading the OP, I really, really hope that you are not implying that the present and historical hatred of Jews is ‘something they brought upon themselves.’
Im not certain, but I don’t think the Jews became moneylenders because they were prohibited from other trades, but because it was a sin for Catholics to practice usury, which I believe at its most basic definition, is charging interest on a loan. The Jews just stepped up to fill that niche.
I do agree with the OP’s generalizations though. As a Jew myself (well former Jew, now atheist) I can concur that the Jews tend to have rather closed communities, and this trend is stronger with the more religious. My father’s orthodox, Syrian parents are part of one large community stemming from about a dozen families living in Brooklyn and Deal, NJ, that have intermarried for generations (even first cousins, and yes the occasional birth defect results). They won’t even mingle with conservative or reformed Jews let alone gentiles. As I stated above, I think the Jews are inextricably linked to finances. And as bizzwire mentioned its commonly believed that many Jews are in businesses like finance and jewelry sales because its safer to have assets you can pack up and take with you if the Romans or the Cossacks or the SS should come a knocking. I also agree that Jews tend to be blamed for many problems they have absolutely nothing to do with. During the bubonic plague Jews were accused of poisoning the water supply, Hitler used them as a scapegoat for Germany’s failing economy, and there is that whole making matzah out of the blood of Christian babies thing.
That said, it’s a common Jewish practice to embrace this notion of perpetual persecution. Many Jews seem even to enjoy it. My uncle likes to say the story behind all Jewish holidays are alike, “They tried to kill us, they didn’t, we so we ate a big dinner!”
As for blood stained holy land, I’m obviously biased in that I don’t even believe in God, but I think if there was a greater good looking down on us, and interested in what we were doing it would be disgusted at the atrocities taking place in its name. How could something benevolent condone so much senseless violence?
Well the bible does have alot of violence in it. Which i think is ironic when you read websites like www.capalert.com . This guy claims all violence is becuause of the media.a nd that violence in movies and books is bad. Ironic? isnt it?
ive been going back and forth with the head guy at capalert for quite some time , i ve even tried to get him into the straight dope message boards to add a little bit more color , but no luck , cap@capalert.com. for anybody thinking they can sweet talk an extremely hard headed fundie into allowing his views to debate…
IMO i think the difference between murder, wars, and executions, is merely a matter of rationalization of action. The killing of another means assuming the duty or RIGHT to do so. if society doesn’t agree, then it is murder.
the reasons given by me (thread starter) for why the jews have been persecuted down centuries is not a justification for these persecution but reasons attributed by historians. it is strange isn’t it that one community has had to bear so much?
as mentioned by caixinth above orthodox jews believe that the persecution is a penance they have to undergo as a part of their banishment from the holy land (the diaspora). to the extent that rabbies were burnt alive under hitler without them trying to retaliate. the Jews have hence been docile and thus eassy targets.
You know what this puppet show needs? A hypothetical Simpsons scene.
Scene: same old Simpsons House. A huge white limousine pulls out front. Security guards scatter around the neighborhood. One of them breaks Milhouse’s glasses and shoos him with a rifle butt into a coal closet.
Then, a VW Bug pulls up. Yassir Arafat gets out and walks to the door.
[aside: Homer and Marge are already gone on a flimsy pretense.]
*Arafat knocks at the door. Bart and Lisa cautiosly open it so hat just their hair and eyes can be seen.
The door is kicked the rest of the way open, and black-clad “agents” of indeterminate origin frisk the entire house in a few frames. One agent sweeps aside Marge’s panties to reveal a post-paid subscription card to the “In-Fisherman.” He looks around furtively and hides it in his bulletproof vest.
Bart and Lisa are held at gunpoint until a camera crew sets up. The cameraman tells the kids to move two kneels to the left, then two kneels to the right. Yassir speaks. He sounds curiously like Isaac Hayes.*
Yassir Hello, children. I’ve just dropped by this average suburban American neighborhood to ask you how to stop the violence in the Middle East.
Bart and Lisa simultaneously: Stop blowing up people?
The Arabs were no less tolerant before the Ottomans took over rule from the Arab rulers. In fact, IIRC, in Baghdad (a major capital city for one of the Califids), Jews were invited to court to work with Muslim scholars to study and come up with new technologies. Same thing in Spain.
