The Jew Question [defining Jew and Christian. ed. title]

Depends. We can leave aside groups like “Jews for Jesus” who were founded to deliberately use deception and fraud in order to trick vulnerable and lonely Jews into becoming Christians. Even with that aside, there already was a movement for Jews (or anybody else) to become Christians, and it’s named Christianity.

Of course, the rub was:

The example of Jesus’ followers might show how effective they were at keeping Jewish customs. :wink: I’d also add that, sooner or later, it’s pretty much inevitable. Hence, even secret Jews in Spain whose descendants no longer know they’re Jews. Or people who identify as “German” or “Irish” or what have you, as 3rd generation Americans, who would be told “No, you’re just an American” by native Germans and Irish folks.

And the answer would be that religiously he’d placed himself firmly outside of Judaism and that, essentially, he’d left the tribe. His children would be brought up as Christians, and that was the culture he’d chosen for himself and his family.

He might very well be used to, even able to fit into Jewish culture, but he’s no longer a Jew in any real sense. He’s become a “Christian who has Jewish heritage.” There is, really, no difference between him and a gentile who grew up around Jews and can sling the lingo.

Sure they do.
Likewise, I want to have Jeri Ryan be my personal love Goddess on alternating weekends.

I’m rooting for myself, by the way.

That has nothing to do with anything - many Muslim owned and operated restaurants are certified kosher, too.

Not irrelevant at all. I was responding to the statement, “You can’t be Christian (that is, believe in the divinity of Jesus) and be Jewish.” (Emphasis mine.) If you want to change the phrasing of what Malthus said, that’s fine. But don’t say that my post was irrelevant just because you substitute “venerate” for “believe in the divinity of” after the fact.

If this was just an irrelevant, ho-hum, yawn, everyday event, then the Supreme Court of Israel wouldn’t have had to slap down the Attorney General, the Chief Rabbinate and the Ashdod Rabbinate over the affair.

These entities opposed granting of kashrut certification because they were fully aware that it would lend Messianic Judaism greater Jewish authenticity.

Until and unless they get a trademark on it, nope.

There is no requirement that someone be Jewish in order to sell kosher food. This is absoluely meaningless, and I assure, not even close to a recognition of so-called “Messianic Jews” as anything other than garden variety evangelical Christians.

Have you ever been to a Messianic congregation or service?

If you’re asking whether or not I’ve been to Christian services, then yes.
If you’re asking whether or not I’ve been to Christian services that pretend some sort of connection to Judaism? Then no.

Oh, and:

If you’re really suggesting that Jews have to trademark our religion in order to prevent predatory liars and idiots from pretending to be Jews, then I’m not sure what there is to be said. We can point out the truth even in the face of “Messianic” trickery/nomenclature, and we don’t need government sanction to do it, either. :rolleyes:

I’m still waiting to hear whether a man and his wife are literally one flesh.

Of course not, but Christians do think that Jesus is literally God or a “son of God,” which is completely incompatable with Judaism.

I don’t think he has an answer for that but I find this Jewish concept you brought up of two persons in one living being rather interesting when trying to persuade Jews that Christians believe in the same one and only God.

There are references to sons of God in the old testament.

Lib, most Jews believe that the Torah is full of metaphors. Like that one. Are you trying to say that the trinity is also a metaphor and that Christianity does not (for most if not all Christian denominations) believe in Christ’s literal divinity?

More to the point, are you claiming that those who call themselves “Messianic Jews” are not accepting Christ as part of a literal trinity, as God’s son who died for their sins, but are just declaring that Christ was one heckuva Rebbe and they want to study his teachings and his interpretations of Torah? Because maybe then you’d be within some sort of spitting distance of making some sort of point. But since they are instead stating that they accept Christ’s divinity, which places them clearly outside being religiously Jewish, you are not even within a parsec of a point to be made.

No… I’m saying you (well, we, I guess) can’t stop liars and idiots (or anyone, actually) from claiming to be Jews. It’s not a Jewish thing, though - any religion can have people claiming membership even if others (who may or may not also claim membership) choose not to recognize that claim. All a trademark would do is allow us to take secular legal action against claims we didn’t like.

Yes, that is exactly the sum total of what you can legally do. I suppose if God was real, we could get him to do some smiting on our behalf, but since He’s been altogether silent these last ~3500 years, we’ll just have to put up with it.

Would you people just stop it?

Christianity has been the enemy of the Jewish People for centuries. We’ve managed to hammer out an uneasy truce over recent generations - so why are you people trying so hard to violate it? Leave. Us. Alone. You worship your religion, or not, and we’ll worship ours, or not, and never the twain shall meet. Stop trying to find “common ground” - we don’t want any.

And make up your own damn myths.

I’m probably using the term “Trinity” incorrectly.

If you believe that God had a son, reincarnated himself as his own son, was simultaneously himself and his own son–I’m using the term “trinity” to cover that. Now that I type it out, I’m probably wrong on the definition.

If you call yourself a “Christian” and don’ believe in the divinity of Jesus and follow his teachings, you’re not using (as far as I know) a usage that 99% of the world shares. Christian=Follower of Christ & his teachings. Christ (as far as I know) said the bit about “I have come to fulfill the law.” To Jews no-one can do that. Christ claimed to be a unique Son of God. That is antithetical to Jewish teachings.

Right now, I’m a short, hairy, gravel-voiced white guy. I can claim to be a tall, leggy black woman who looks like (and sings like) Miram Makeba and there’s no law against it. BUT I WOULD BE WRONG and people would look at me funny.

Right now, there are groups of people who accept that Jesus was a divine (aka: supernatural powers) Messiah who was the Son of God. They call themselves “Jews”. They are ALSO wrong.

Again, forget the cultural stuff. The Jewish faith has rules. Per some in this thread, the Christian faith doesn’t*. If you believe that Jesus was divine in any way/shape/sense or was related to God in any way/shape/sense, you’re not Jewish (religiously).

Groups like Jews For Jesus are trying to define Judaism out of existence. If being a Jew means (in the popular mind) anything, then it means nothing.
*Which surprises me. I thought that, at bare minimum, if you didn’t believe in John 3:16, you weren’t Christian. I thought that was the single, non-negotiable piece of Christianity. If not, what’s to stop say, a follower of, say Voodoo to claim that they were Christians? Yeah, there’s no law against it, but people would point and laugh. Words mean things.

Of course we can’t stop it.

But we can inform and educate people.

If the Jews For Jesus type attempts* try to exterminate the term “Jew” as a meaningful definition, what the Jews in this thread are doing is really the only way to retaliate.

I hate to use this phrase, but it’s just too apt “Silence equals death”. If “Jew” can mean anything (in the popular culture) it means nothing.
*And “Messianic Jews” to a much, MUCH lesser attempt

In the same way Islam is a branch of Christianity?

That’s it…no more weapons for you! And be a dear and handle that Iran problem on your own, won’t you?

:slight_smile:

But we need those gun for when Jesus returns and we have to fight the Armies of the Dark One at Megiddo!

(Snerk).