It wouldn’t change as to your specific argument. In order for violence to be a reason for trans people to use the bathroom of their gender identity you need for it to be overwhelmingly directed at those who use the one that aligns with their physical identity. If there’s no difference, then violence is not an argument in favor of them using either particular type.
I think people are far more likely to be violent against a trans person than against a woman.
But we’re not discussing violence at this point - you’re conflating two issues. The question is about the feelings of non-violent cis people who are uncomfortable with trans people using the same bathroom. You’re saying this is due to bigotry and should not be respected. I’m saying it’s more analogous to discomfort with opposite gender people sharing bathrooms.
It’s a reason because, if I’m right, trans people can’t use any bathrooms. They should be able to use a bathroom – and since they’d prefer to use the one that corresponds to their gender identity, that seems the reasonable choice.
I think you’re wrong here – I think this violent tendency towards trans people, which we both agree is directed at trans people and not people of the opposite gender, demonstrates that it’s due to bigotry rather than discomfort with the opposite gender.
In fact, if you’re saying what I think you’re saying, then I find it kind of mind-boggling – do you really believe that a discomfort that leads to violence against a specific group is not bigoted and should be respected? If so, I’m kind of shocked.
By the way, in defense of the way I post and engage with some other posters, I’ll relate the following “True Tale of Dopering ™”:
Anyone remember the poster New Deal Democrat? He was one of the posters that argued that black people were less intelligent and more aggressive, on average, than other groups, due to genetic factors. For a long, long time (years, I think) he argued this. In one particularly long Pit thread (probably far, far too long for some Dopers), I (and others) pushed and pushed and questioned and questioned, and he finally revealed (inadvertently, perhaps, due to frustration) his true, deep down feelings, asserting that black people were “savages who spread their savagery everywhere they went” (or something very close to this).
I think this was a valuable thing – revealing his true and deep feelings about black people. If that was a valuable thing for the Board, and I think that it was, then the way I (and some others) engaged him was at least partly responsible for this. I don’t mean to say that everyone I engage is a secret racist – just that sometimes interesting information can come out from long and patient engagement.
That was one of the instances that helped me figure out how to engage people. I know some folks don’t like my style, but I think it can add value to the Board.
This makes no sense at all in the context of the discussion.
Again, if trans people face violence in bathrooms regardless of which gender type they use, then violence is not a determinant of which they use. Therefore it needs to be decided on other grounds. Which is exactly what I was discussing before LHOD and you brought in violence. If you’re going to concede that violence is equivalent either way, then stop talking about it in this context.
There’s no special category of “discomfort that leads to violence”. A person who is inclined to violence, or to violence against a specific group, or who is bigoted against a specific group, is going to be quicker to resort to violence against members of that group based on any sort of discomfort.
For example, a KKK member is more likely to resort to violence against a black guy who accidently bumps into him than he is against a white guy who does. That doesn’t mean that discomfort with people bumping into you is “discomfort that leads to violence” and should be treated as bigotry.
In sum, there are any number of non-violent and non-bigoted cis people who are uncomfortable with trans people using the same bathrooms, your attempts to impugn them notwithstanding.
[ISTM that the above is all obvious, and we may be past the point of productive discourse.]
Violence is a determinant that trans people should be allowed to use the bathroom. Do you agree with this? If so, then we can move to which bathroom.
But discomfort with black people bumping into you should be treated as bigotry, right? Similarly, I believe discomfort with trans (and only trans) people in the bathroom is bigotry and should be treated as such.
I don’t believe that there are any non-bigoted cis people who are uncomfortable with trans people using the same bathroom, any more than there are non-bigoted white people uncomfortable with black people using the same bathroom.
Such bigotry may just be due to ignorance, and it may be correctable, but it’s still bigotry. And it’s a bigotry, by the way, that I felt as a younger man (late teens, early twenties, before I understood what transgender actually was).
The problem is that up to the last few years, there has been very little public discussion of trans rights. It’s a Wild West scenario, in which trans people have to make a decision, and whichever decision they make can lead to violence.
The reason it’s relevant is that we’re now having the discussion, and we need to discuss which public policy is likely to lead to the least violence. It’s entirely possible that saying, “It ain’t up to you to police people’s bathroom choices; people get to choose which bathroom they use” is the public policy that leads to the least violence, as it reinforces the idea that random schmucks don’t make the decisions for other people.
It’s true that trans people either way will ruffle some feathers. A trans man who passes very well is going to ruffle fewer feathers using the men’s room; a trans man who doesn’t pass very effectively is going to ruffle feathers wherever he goes; a trans man (or, let’s say, a genderqueer person with female anatomy) who doesn’t try to pass is going to ruffle fewer feathers using the women’s room. We need a policy with clear rules that applies to all of them.
The clearest policy is this: people choose the bathroom they use and let others make the same choice. This is the policy that doesn’t require me to second-guess the decision someone else is making. This is the policy that tells me to mind my own goddamned business. And it’s very likely that this is the policy that results in the least violence to trans folk, as the policy clearly lets people know it ain’t their job to police trans people and their choices of where to pee.
In sum, you’re speculating that letting trans people use the bathrooms of their gender identity will cause less violence. I would speculate the opposite. No real evidence either way. So it’s kind of a moot point here.
Returning to the original point I was making here, I highly doubt if this particular bit of shaky reasoning is the real impetus for making transgender bathroom usage into some great right. To the extent that it’s related to violence against transpeople it’s probably a much fuzzier “hey look at all this violence directed against trans people, so we should be more tolerant and let them conform to their gender identity”.
No it’s not. I’ve posted so many times on this subject, from direct personal experience, from testimony, and from actual professional experience. I seem to remember you participating in those threads. You don’t get to declare victory and call it a “moot point.”
It’s also very easily Googlable, and has been posted here several times, the issue of transgender men being forced to use a women’s room. You really think cisgender women are going to be more comfortable standing at the sink next to a bald guy with a great big old beard dressed in flannel? And believe me, most of them are very sexually interested in women. Everyone seems to focus on the transgender women, and pretends like the transgender men don’t exist.
It’s really annoying to have to keep posting the same things again and again. I even posted a photo of me and asked the anti-transgender people on here what bathroom I belong in. Eve asked me yesterday why I bother to post here any more, and instead focus on my IRL social work where I actually educate people and fight bigotry directly. Perhaps it’s finally time to go.
I love you, Una. I hope you keep on fighting here. But I totally understand if you choose not to. The wall is hard, and you only have so much skull to bash against it.
Don’t worry, I’m not threatening to flounce out with a pout, just saying why am I fighting the same battle here again and again? How many times do I have to type the same thing? And when I compile the facts and figures off-board to use in debates so I don’t have to type the same thing, I get the trolls saying “TLDR,” or refusing to read citations, or claiming they read them and lying about the content - and continuing on as if you never typed a word.
My thinking: idiots gonna idiot. There’s a reason this thread exists in the first place, after all.
You’ve got a shit-ton of knowledge and experience and insight on trans issues, and you share them wonderfully. If someone’s wed to their ignorance, I don’t think you can persuade them out of it. You don’t have to try; you can write those fuckers off. Meanwhile, look at smapti, for example: sometimes fighting the good fight scores a victory or two.
