Sorry if I wasn’t informative enough. Your post essentially said “Lots of women have told me that you don’t really need much of a schlong to be decent in bed.” The group I work with would have jumped on that as an indication that whoever said that was less than well-endowed in that area, and the insults and ribbing would have begun right away and continued until roughly the end of time or until somebody else did something that painted a bigger bullseye on themselves.
I understood every bit of what you were saying, and I wasn’t trying to disagree or cast aspersions. It’s just that when I read it my mind jumped to what would happen if I happened to say that aloud in my workplace.
The immutable laws of physics would apply if humans were mechanical. Just a quick search of the web proves that we humans are a million times more complex than this.
http://www.rockefeller.edu/pubinfo/metabolism.nr.html
Body rate of metabolism can change within individuals.
A team of researchers at The Rockefeller University, led by Dr. Rudolph Leibel, has shown that the human body maintains a stable weight by increasing the number of calories burned when weight is gained, and slowing the rate when weight is lost. Dr. Jules Hirsch, Sherman M. Fairchild Professor and physician-in-chief of the Rockefeller University Hospital, and Dr. Michael Rosenbaum are co-authors of the study, to be published tomorrow in The New England Journal of Medicine.
http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/genetics/faculties/Van_Der_Ploeg.html
Our ability to control appetite and metabolism in humans is limited. Even though genetic evidence has accumulated over the past years identifying several recessive and a dominant gene that are important in the control of food intake and body weight in mice, human genetics has not yet led to similar breakthroughs. As a result our understanding of the control of appetite and metabolism in humans is still relatively limited.
There are hundreds of thousands more studies and medical papers just a click away that completely disprove your immutable laws of physics and how they pertain to humans.
Still, even if it were true that every human could lose weight as easily as you did, what does that have to do with assigning worth according to weight? It still does not make it right to ascribe negative attributes to fat people.
I have yet to see a study on metabolism that involved measuring the energy stored in human waste and comparing that to calorie intake - calories burned via activity. To assume that all digestive systems have the same efficiency seems unwarranted. Not all mechanical furnaces do. Heck, two cars of the same model can have different actual mpg depending on condition. If you want to assert that calorie intake - calories burned by voluntary movement is proportional to weight gain/loss then you assume that all involutary processing and inv9oluntary wasting of calories works the same in all individuals.
What is the value in believing this? Because it supports the stereotype that Biggirl talks about? Why do ppl want to believe this at all? And why, if this is so important, does no one do studies on the caloric content in feces in comparison to dietary intake?
I don’t know what makes you assume it was easy for me to lose weight.
Your cites do not mean what you think they do.
If 25 calories is required to lift a given weight a given height, than those 25 calories are expended whether a fat person, a skinny person, an electical motor, or a hamster does the work.
It boggles my mind that you would beleive otherwise. There is no obesity exception to the laws of thermodynamics. If you would like to posit one you’re going to have to argue perpetual motion.
I recognize that the body goes into survival mode when dieting and slows the metabolism down. However the laws of physics still apply.
A heavier body requires more calories to maintain itself than a lighter one. The more work (exercise that is done,) the more calories that are burned. If one increases one’s exercise and decreases one’s caloric intake to the point that they are burning more calories than they are consuming, they will lose weight over time. There is no getting around that.
Foolish people attempt to diet by depriving their body of needed food, which sends it into starvation mode, and causes it to hoard every last ounce of energy. They become tired, exercise is difficult, and weight loss occurs at a slow and torturous pace as their bodies constantly send them urgent signals for food.
Intelligent people continue to eat, so their body has the raw materials necessary for survival (you can starve to death and still be fat, you know.) This also discourages their bodies from going into survival mode, and helps cut down on the hunger urge (so does drinking water.) They eat healthy, balanced meals and perform aerobic exercise to force their bodies into higher metabolic rates. Such a Dr. supervised course of action will result in loss of weight if followed.
Certainly losing weight is difficult. Certainly for a variety of reasons some people are more efficient at processing and storing calories than others and are more prone to obesity.
One’s weight is not a set attribute like skin color or sexual preference. It is a function of what you do, and each person is responsible for their own actions health happiness and fitness.
How one handles that responsibility speaks to who they are as a person.
Please stop with the persecution complex. I’m not persecuting, I’m just not willing to accept the false pretense that obesity isn’t a consequence of actions over which a person has choice.
The cites prove that humans do not burn calories at the same rate. Not even the same individual burns calories at the same rate.
I do not have a persecution complex. I believe that fat people are stereotyped. I believe that it is exactly your attitude that perpetuates this stereotype. I started this thead to debate this subject. So far you’ve insinuated that I beleive myself to be a martyr and that I suffer from a complex just because I disagree with you.
I seem to recall that thermoregulation is the major consumer of caloric consumption in humans, and that (as far as work engines go) we’re terribly inefficient at converting chemical energy into mechanical work. It seems quite wrongheaded to look just at calories expended in mechanical work and caloric energy entering the system when there are so many other variables unaccounted for. Scylla, your model of human metabolism appears very simplistic and almost certainly inadequate for any reasonable explanation why some people are fat and others are skinny.
For all I know, fat people are more efficient at converting food into body heat and thus burn fewer calories in thermoregulation, leaving more left over for storage. I can’t say that this is true, but neither can I rule it out.
That aside, I question your assertion, Scylla, that, even if we assume that a fat person can choose to be less fat, that the choice not to indicates any sort of character flaw. The ability to change a thing does not necessitate changing it. Black people could elect to use skin bleach, hair straighteners, and possibly cosmetic surgery so as to look white. Being white would certainly improve their lot in life in our racist world.
Do you, when you meet a black person, question why that black person has failed to bleach himself white? Why or why not? How is this different from questioning why a fat person has failed to utilize every possible means (reasonable or not) to appear less fat?
As I’ve mentioned several times, there are clearly differences between metabolism and efficiency among various people.
Regardless of how efficient a given metabolism is, the bottom line remains that if you put in less than is expended, weight loss will result.
I don’t think that it can reasonably be argued that we are living in a country plagued by an illness that causes metabolic defects resulting in obesity.
The truth is that we eat too much of the wrong foods and exercise too little.
If a person wishes to be overweight, fine, that is their choice, just as it is an individuals choice if they wish to smoke.
If a person does not wish to be obese, in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, there is no reason why they have to be.
If they still are, it is there own fault and their own responsibility. I don’t think much of their choice, just as I don’t think much of the choice that a smoker makes.
I don’t have much sympathy for the smoker who wants to quit “but it’s so hard, I just can’t.” I have an awful lot of respect for the person who toughs it out.
Scylla, the following assertions were offered by you without supporting justification, rationale, or evidence. I question whether they are in fact supportable in any way, and challenge you to provide some credible basis for your belief in them.
“Fault.” Your very words indicate that you disapprove of people who elect not to lose weight, without regard to what the reason might be. Further, you’ve offered no solid reason why it is better to choose to be skinny than to choose to be fat, but you condemn those who make that choice. And you haven’t offered any solid reason to believe that it IS a choice.
Since you choose to use that sort of language and that sort of polemic, I am left with no choice but to conclude that you are a fat bigot.
As for the first, a moments thought will show you why it requires more energy to provide circulation, thermoregulation, and movement for a larger mass than a smaller one.
The best minds hypothesize that this is why a mouse will tend to eat less than a horse.
They also think this might be why you can easily regulate the temperature of a fish tank with a small aqauarium heater, but it doesn’t work so good if you put it in the Atlantic Ocean.
As for the latter, let me try this. It is generally simple to determine what a child’s race is shortly after birth. There is no evidence to suggest that it is possible to change. A person may determine what their sexual preference is shortly after puberty. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that that will ever change.
It is not possible to determine what somebody’s weight will be in the future because it is constantly subject to change One can chart the change based on exercise, muscle mass, quantity, and quality of food intake, stress, a whole variety of factors.
What factors will change one’s race or sexual preference once determined?
People’s weight fluctuate all the time. Fluctuating all the time as a result of environmental factors and personal habits. That seems to pretty self-evidently “not determined.”
Are you somehow suggesting that being obese is not unhealthy? Have you heard of heart disease?
I think that a person who remains obese knowing full well the health consequences has made a bad choice, just as the smoker who chooses to continue to smoke in spite of being aware of the health consequences has also made a bad choice.
You’ve accused me of unfounded stereotyping and disdain, I accuse you of preachy martyrdom. Rhetoric is hurled back and forth, and hopefully beneath it all new attitudes and ideas are being discovered and understood.
“Obesity” is a medical condition. Of course it’s unhealthy. But it’s also defined rather vaguely. If you measured the Body Mass Index of a lot of professional body builders they would be considered obese based on that measure alone, even though most have less than 5% bodyfat.
Being “overweight” is not the same as being “obese,” yet you are using the term as if it were.
And for the record, I say only those who have absolutely never failed to keep themselves perfect in every way can afford to feel disdain for any other human being.
I must confess Ptahlis that when I read this I laughed out loud. Who do you work with, a bunch of teenagers? It sounds like that’s about where their mental maturity/intelligence level is at. Of course, there might be another reason they would care so much about another guy’s dick size. (Do I hear “buried homosexuality,” anyone?)
I can understand what you’re getting at in a way though. If I had said the above as if it were from women I had slept with, it could give the wrong idea. But guys who wouldn’t shut up about it are either (a) stupid and immature, or (b) cruisin’ for a bruisin’. Perhaps both.
And for the record, I say only those who have absolutely never failed to keep themselves perfect in every way can afford to feel disdain
for any other human being.
[quote]
Well then, I guess I’m safe.
Actually, that’s just one of those sayings that sounds high and mighty but doesn’t mean much.
Oh, and from Webster’s
I feel disdain for your attempt to correct my usage of “obese”
Seems like it’s time to clear up some points. Let me make my stand plain and easy to follow for all.
1.It is unhealthy to be overweight.—I don’t think there is much argument here.
2.It is unattractive to be overweight— If we can find the definition of overweight. Let’s say the clinically obese. Yes, the majority of people find the clinically obese unattractive.
3.A person’s weight is dependant on caloric intake and energy expenditure—Yes, there is no argument here.
4.The equation of calories in, energy out is the same for everyone—First major disagreement. It is not the same for everyone. It is relatively easy for some and close to impossible for others.
5. If your calories in, energy out=fat person, then you have some kind of human failing—My biggest problem. It doesn’t really matter why a person’s equation does not equal thin, it is an ugly stereotype to equate fatness with a person’s worth.
I will reiterate and emphatically declare: It is wrong to make a judgment on a person’s character because of their weight.
4 and 5 are not accurate representations of what I said.
I clearly mentioned several times that metabolic processes and efficiencies will differ. There are ranges and rules concerning how this may occur. A given activity requires an absolute physical minimum expenditure of energy. Regardless of weight, at least that minimum in energy must be expended before the activity can be completed. As a general rule a heavier person must expend more energy than a lighter peroson to accomplish the same task given that they have that much more weight to maintain and move around. This is why an obese person will eventually stop gaining weight even though food intake does not decrease. THe more they eat, the more weight they gain the more calories it takes to maintain metabolicv processes for that much weight. Eventually equilibrium is achieved.
Now of course there is both the person who’s body doesn’t seem to gain weight no matter how much they eat, as well as the person that everything seems to stick to. The latter will likely have a much more difficult time maintaining optimal body weight than the former. In fact, the latter may put forth a great deal more effort in maintaining fitness than the former, yet still be significantly overweight, while the former eats crap and doesn’t exercise and appears to be the very model of health. This is an unfortunate fact, the luck of the draw.
Still, barring a medical problem it is nowhere near impossible for even a person for whom the metabolic scales present a severe disadvantage to attain an optimal weight through a combination of diet and exercise, if they so choose.
The human body is a fairly precise mechanism with a pretty damn narrow operating range, and the metabolic scale/vs. exercise is not as great as one might think. As has been stated before, the most common pitfall a dieter faces is inadvertently pushing their body into starvation mode, and conditioning it to hoard calories.
5. I guess it depends on what it is we’re judging and whether the other necessary data is being taken into consideration. I would not judge one’s poetry or worth as a human being based on weight, but I would surely judge their ability to run a marathon.
When combined with what else I know about a given person, I might use their weight to form an opinion about their self-image, priorities, and with knowledge of their habits I might form an opinion about their ability to follow through on commitment, or even, with reservations, their self-discipline and ability to defer gratification. All in all in my opinion weight is not a particuarly important piece of data in forming an opinion. There are many things which come first, like honest, integrity, openness, outlook and golf handicap. Yet, one’s weight is a piece of data which simply shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand as it is potentially indicative.
Actually…I don’t want to get people started on a big THING about this, but there IS some disagreement regarding what constitutes obesity and what level of obesity is unhealthy. Many people believe that being sedentary is a better indicator of poor health than being overweight. This comes up with regard to swimmers on occasion, since they seem to reach an equilibrium with regard to fat storage. A woman who swam across the English channel a few years back actually had a BMI that made her clinically obese. But…well…she swam across the English Channel.
I personally reached a similar point in my fitness attempts. You get to a point where your heart is in GREAT shape, you’ve got the stamina of a thin person, the strength of a thin person, but you’ve still got extra weight on you. This actually is a frustrating space to be in because you have to do more and more to get your heart rate up enough to burn fat. It’s also frustrating because people make the same assumptions about you…the ones Scylla suggests are appropriate regarding your self-esteem, priorities, etc…even though none of those things is even remotely true.
This “calories in vs. calories out” stuff sort of misses the point. I agree with you Biggirl, that it is wrong to make a judgement on a person’s character based on their weight. And I want to reiterate my position that not only is it wrong and likely inaccurate, but in some cases it serves to keep the overweight person from making progress.
What I consider to be the problem in a majority of the obese people I know is NOT that they haven’t come to terms with the whole “calories in vs. calories out” thing. Everyone KNOWS that. Even though they may grumble about the fairness of their own personal “equation” they know less in and more out = weight loss.
The issue is psychological NOT physiological. And in fact, if it WERE solely physiological, gastric bypass procedures wouldn’t have such high failure rates. People who have their “stomachs stapled” often re-gain the weight they lost because they haven’t changed their relationship with food…that is, their emotional and psychological approach to what they put in their bodies and how they take care of themselves. Even re-designing your digestive system to adjust for that “calories in vs. calories out” thing doesn’t necessarily solve the problem.
Someone like Scylla who finds themselves heavier than they’d like to be and struggles to lose it thinks they’ve had the experience of a “fat person.” When in fact, all they’ve had is the physical experience. Being overweight can be brought about and maintained by the same mechanisms that cause alcoholism to thrive. Or anorexia or bulimia. The possible issues are self-image, depression, isolationism…the list is endless. The unfortunate thing about eating disorders is that the sufferer WEARS their habit wherever they go.
I know someone is going to say , “See! We CAN assume things about a fat person because if it’s in effect a “mental illness” then we can make assumptions about THAT.” But my point is just the opposite. We seem to have been talking along black and white lines, as in: the overweight person is too (lazy, stupid, unhealthy, down on themselves, insert whatever adjective you like) to take advantage of a simple law of physics. When in reality it’s infinitely more complex than that. And speaking from experience, there is a much greater continuum of behavior than we’ve been discussing here.
As I said in an earlier post, the fat man on the exercise bike next to you may have already LOST 100 pounds. The woman may be suffering from post-partum depression. I could be gearing up to start a new exercise regimen tomorrow, I could be in the middle of it, or I may have just “fallen off the wagon” and be completley disgusted with myself over it. It’s not appropriate to assume ANYTHING about a person based on their weight because there could be a myriad of causes, a lengthy list of issues and possibilities that you have no idea of.
In my particular case, the suicide of a lover had a great affect on my weight. Sure, it’s my responsibility to take care of myself regardless of outside stimuli. I understand that. But if you’re going to make assumptions about such people I think they should be limited to, “Wow, she must be having a tough time” and should manifest itself more in the outstretched hand and admiration for someone else’s deep emotional struggle.
I don’t think stereotyping fat people is the last acceptable stereotyping people in American do. Stereotyping is a form of cultural shorthand. It comes in more forms than can be counted. It makes for quick and easy catagorizing of too many people to see as individuals. Some man gags at the thought of a dirty diaper and there’s a single dad doing the job without a second thought. Some ditzy blonde is yakking on her cellphone and a blonde surgeon is saving someone’s sight. In a trailerpark somewhere, someone is watching Montel, eating Moonpies and collecting welfare while the resident of the nextdoor trailer works 40 hours a week and 12 more on the weekend. There’s a fat person, looked down on and made miserable by their unacceptance in their society and there’s me.
Lizard—I do just fine…
