That documentary wasn’t a Beeb production, rather it was being made for Irish television when the coup happened.
It won World Best Television Programme earlier this year.
The page that i linked to is from the Beeb.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/storyville/chavez.shtml
Simon, that’s the same right-wing source I found that had actually referred to the coup. I especially appreciated the propaganda here:
Notice how they’re already making it sound like The Big, Bad Liberal Media® is suppressing the “real truth” by making it appear Chavez is a “populist” leader. Well, the guy was elected to office twice, so you can’t call him a dictator. You can only allege that he’s “acting” like a dictator. (You know, like when a nation’s leader makes up or supports lies to lead the nation into an illegal war trumped up by his circle of confidantes. 
)
Notice that the word Marxist is used. See, this is a propagandist’s weapon. He uses a word that has an established, negative past in the U.S. Is Chavez a Marxist? What does it mean to be a Marxist? Nevermind. It’s understood in this article that it means Chavez is bad.
The rest of that article’s just a bunch of lies that surely came straight from the State Department.
Clucky -
You seem to have skipped right past the part where you actually show that the CIA was involved.
You don’t do your central thesis any favors by repeating “why won’t the mainstream media accept the unsubstantiated accusations of the most extreme fringes of the Left as gospel? It must be a conspiracy!”
Where there is smoke, there is sometimes fire. But sometimes, it is just someone blowing smoke.
The “alternative media” is not ever going to become mainstream and credible until they do a lot better than this.
Regards,
Shodan
Clucky, I suggest that you ask yourself why, if you can so readily apply that sort of critical eye (and rightly so, I might add) to the article that SimonX posted, can you not do the same to the material you posted in your OP?
This Human Rights link gives more information on U.S. involvement (bullying) in Latin American virtually ignored by the mainstream media. Some quotes, in which I’ve bolded some items I found particularly interesting:
†The U.S. supports Portillo, and in this State Department press statement **Powell “expressed appreciation for the counter-terrorism measures undertaken by the Guatemalan Government, including its public statements, its ratification of key international conventions and its passage of anti-money laundering legislation.”
More importantly, Powell thanks Portillo for his “enthusiasm for President Bush’s proposal to explore a free trade area with Central America. We look forward to Guatemalan society participating fully in the process and benefits.”**
What’s the free trade area? Think it favors the many poor people in Latin America over corporate interests waiting to turn a buck? Well, of course not. It’s another piece of the American globalization puzzle, which you can either help put together and receive U.S. rewards (financial aid), or you can resist and pay the consequences (aid to opposition groups friendly to U.S. corporate interests).
Anyway, seems to me the U.S. could begin the fight against terrorism by ending its support of terrorism. Where’s the media on this?
I thought we were talking about Venezuela?
Well, quibble with whether it was the CIA. But, I think there’s enough evidence that the U.S. was involved. Enough for the media to investigate. This was my original thesis:
I’m going to use Venezuela as an example. I will argue that the CIA inspired the attempted coup in April against the rightfully elected nationalist leader, Hugo Chavez, as it has with so many Third World countries that have decided to stray from the U.S. vision of globalization. Or, I think I can at least show that there’s enough evidence that the media should be investigating this distinct possibility.
Heh. I didn’t say that. That’s not my argument. If you read carefully, you will see that I just want to know why the mainstream media won’t investigate this more carefully. Why not take this opportunity to look seriously at how the U.S. can bully a Third World nation. They don’t have to “accept” anything. But, they do regularly accept the word of official U.S. sources, giving us an “official” view when we look at the news.
What you call “a lot better,” can you expound on that a little? I’ve pieced together a decent amount of evidence, including a person who actually talked to CIA operatives who said that the U.S. was involved in this coup. I did this by going to alternative sources. I don’t have to apologize.
Well, I didn’t say I was perfect, nor that every leftist writer is perfect, nor that I believe everything I read if it’s from the left.
But, I will admit that I have my own biases, having been exposed to knowledge of how the U.S. exploits other nations, without little notice from the mainstream press. It’s like what Blum said. You start paying attention to this stuff, and you can tell what’s happening from similar circumstances that occurred in the past. The CIA regularly involves itself in these types of coups. It’s part of history that gets largely ignored.
It matters who you believe. I believe the author who says that the Venezuelan legislators had American names involved with the coup and an American sniper in custody after the coup. That, to me, was enough evidence to show me that the U.S. was involved, when combined with my knowledge of other CIA coups.
Turns out, there was other legitimate evidence out there that the U.S. was involved, particularly the NSA and quite probably the CIA, since the one source says he got his information talking with CIA operatives. I couldn’t find that info at first, and thank goodness it was out there, but it doesn’t change the fact that, I believe, my point is valid.
We were. And, to bolster my arguments that the U.S. bullies Latin American nations, I wanted to expound and put the argument in context. A Venezuelan coup doesn’t come as much of a shock if you know the history of our doings in the southern hemisphere.
Check out the Human Rights link I posted above and read through the problems they’re having down there. You find that the U.S. usually is exacerbating the problems.
I’ve also thought about posting info about past coups led by the CIA, to put things in context. I just might.
Yeah, Clucky, show us some real evidence, like a news release from
the CIA, saying “We did the coup in Venezuela.” I am kidding of course…
Of course the CIA was involved, you idiots!!! This is exactly what
they are chartered to do, protect the interests of US corporations overseas. Read Philip Agee’s book, “Inside the Company.”
The CIA is the Ur-corporation, the corporation above all corporations. That is why they call it, “The Company.”
BTW, nationalizing property of transnational corporations is NOT theft. The country pays a fair price for it. When Arbenz expropriated the property of United Fruit in order to institute land reforms, he paid United Fruit the price that they said the property was worth. United Fruit stole it right back after the CIA-backed coup.
When Castro nationalized property in Cuba, he offered to pay for it, but the US corporations refused to accept payment. That is their fault and their loss.
Let me see if I have the thesis correct.
- The CIA is evil.
- As proof of this, we have the example of the CIA helping to bring about a coup in Venezuela.
- How do we know the CIA was involved?
- Because the CIA is evil.
Is that about it?
You know, I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to pull out the big guns, but, you know, you asked for it, so here it is:
:rolleyes:
Anyhoo, you can try to sum it up in this manner, Sam, but I don’t think what you had to say at all reflects this thread, in tone or content. Please, if you will, look at some of the specific allegations and respond.
Another plea. Learn more about the CIA. Go to an “unofficial” source. Read the Agee book that Roger recommends. Or, read Blum’s books. I haven’t read them myself, although I’ve read enough of his interviews online to know what he knows. I plan on reading the books, too.
Maybe I can start a Leftist/Evil CIA/Corporate Amerika Book Club.
Sometimes I just have to lighten this subject matter up, or otherwise it depresses me.
Conversely, I could argue the CIA wasn’t involved because of the lack of activity and all encompassing ineptness of today’s CIA, as Robert Baer notes in his book See No Evil.
As for Castro, one hijack:
Did Castro pay compensation for the thousands he had murdered at La Cabana? Just curious. :wally
Posted by SimonX:
(Emphasis added.) That raises an interesting question: How much “cleaning house” has Chavez actually done since the coup? Did he have enemies who only came out in the open when the coup started? Has he since had any of them arrested? Fired? Snubbed? None of the news reports I’ve heard from Venezuela since the coup mention this.
Just from memory: many of the coup plotters maintain positions in opposition groups, some are beginning to be removed by the opposition itself (about time!) and the law (although you could make a case that Chavez is behind) has arrested the most notorious coup plotters (reading about the evidence against them, I think those arrests were justified), others just have jumped ship, and sleeked asylum, not because they were going to be killed, but arrested also.
Still: some “dictator”! In contrast to countless others, he has allowed the very virulent anti-Chavez press to continue (even though it was a factor in the coup), and there is no concerted effort to hunt down and kill the opposition (harassing could be the word I use).
That, and taking into account what the opposition was planning to do to any Chavista in a post coup Venezuela, is the reason why I pragmatically support Chavez now; still, if I were Venezuelan, I would be working to get a good candidate against him in the next election.
I don’t know. Did the US government pay reparations to Nicaragua for the 30,000 people they murdered there, after being ordered to do so by the International Court of Justice?
I would like to see a cite for the assertion that there’s an American in custody for the sniper attacks during the protests. I can find a cite that anybody’s in custody for it- I’ve been looking and found bubkus.
And if Chavez doesn’t want to get demonized as a supporter of terrorists, maybe he shouldn’t be pen pals with Carlos the Jackal. Just a suggestion.
Well, the coup failed, so maybe this supports the theory that an inept CIA was involved.
I don’t understand that letter, either. It is puzzling, and I’m not sure how Chavez identifies with Sanchez. I don’t know much about Sanchez, actually, or his reasons for killing. Perhaps Chavez thinks Sanchez was wrongly accused for some reason, or justified in his cause. I have no idea.
Of course, if the U.S. welcomed Chavez as a justly elected leader, instead of working in consort with his political enemies, perhaps he’d identify with our leaders and our country. Just maybe. And, he wouldn’t be looking to befriend our known enemies.
At any rate, Chavez isn’t a Boy Scout. I know that. What he IS is democratically elected.
Here’s more about snipers apprehended during the coup, written by a reporter/columnist who is in Venezuela.
The snipers were let go by Carmona, according to this report. NarcoNews is the Web site this comes from, and this reporter (well, he writes more like a columnist) obviously has been keeping close tabs on the situation. (I admit this sheds no light on the claim that the snipers were Americans. Have to keep looking for another source about this.)
Here, he details the coup. Lots of interesting items in this, including this:
Then, he quotes Madsden, the former NSA officer whose unique perspective was cited above, naming the Navy, NSA, CIA and US contract military personnel as being involved.
I’m reading all this guy has to say on the coup. I’ll come back with another post talking about some of the points he makes, especially about how the U.S. media propagandized the situation beforehand to make Chavez look like another militaristic thug, setting the background for when they could report that it was a “popular uprising,” not a coup.
Who said anything about Nicaragua?