The LDS Church's Statement on the US Elections

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Marley23

I am attempting to tell you what you are doing regardless of your intent. This is a demand that people argue about a bunch of related subjects before they are allowed to discuss the actual topic at hand. You used this tactic on stpauler, who said he did feel that way about other religious groups, and undeterred by the fact that that made your question basically pointless and the fact that I’d told you to stop it, you did the same exact thing to another poster who gave you an identical answer. This is contributing nothing to the discussion and you’re ignoring mod instructions. Rather than explaining your intent, please stop doing it.

Ok, fair enough.

Since Sicks Ate is now attempting to explain why he finds Mormonism more “preposterous” than the Abrahamic religions, I assume we can discuss that since it is certainly related to the topic.

[Sicks_Ate]

@Ibn_Warraq

Ok, fair enough.

Since Sicks Ate is now attempting to explain why he finds Mormonism more “preposterous” than the Abrahamic religions, I assume we can discuss that since it is certainly related to the topic.

Please don’t put words in my mouth. That’s twice.

[Marley23]

@Ibn_Warraq

Since Sicks Ate is now attempting to explain why he finds Mormonism more “preposterous” than the Abrahamic religions, I assume we can discuss that since it is certainly related to the topic.

You assume incorrectly. If the two of you want to discuss that topic, please do it in a new Great Debates thread.

[Merneith]

@April_R

P.S. The Church did not actively campaign against anything, members of the Church did. Individual members, who organized themselves. The Church was not asking anyone to do anything. They did it as individuals. Just like abortion clinic bombers are not acting under the directions or their church. Some members felt strongly enough about this issue to donate time and money to it, but it was not donated by the Church, but Church members.

You might want to ignore TokyoBayer’s cite, but it’s right up there above your own at post #128. I’ll quote the relevant part here for you again:

@TokyoBayer's NYT article

Shortly after receiving the invitation from the San Francisco archdiocese, the Mormon leadership in Salt Lake City issued a four-paragraph decree to be read to congregations, saying “the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan,” and urging members to become involved with the cause.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Sicks_Ate

The difference is that the Abrahamic tradition is thousands of years old. That does give some points in its favor, barely.

No, it doesn’t. It merely means they are more familiar and therefore appear less strange.

Sicks Ate
Mormonism is less than 200,

So are the Bahai. Does that mean they are sillier than Shia Muslims or Orthodox Jews.

The Druze are vastly older and yet they have many beliefs that you would find vastly more absurd than Mormon beliefs.

Hence my statement earlier that I find it hard to take anybody seriously who believes that Jesus is going to come back to Independence, Missouri.

Why is that any sillier than someone who believes that the creator of the Universe introduced himself to a tiny obscure desert tribe thousands of years ago and forged a covenant with them and that he cares more about them than the rest of humanity and charged them with spreading his message as opposed to countless other groups vastly better equipped to do so?

Why is that sillier than believing that the creator of the universe will get angry with me if I eat pork, drink alcohol, have some crab, fail to pray to him five times a day, or decided on Sunday that I’d like to go watch a baseball game or pick up an extra shift at work.

For that matter, how is that sillier than believing that the idea that a sentient, omnipotent being created the universe, was in existence for billions of years before even the creation of the planet Earth much less humanity coming into existence and yet he/she actually cares about humans and that humans are more to him/her than bacteria on our skin cells are to us?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Marley23

You assume incorrectly. If the two of you want to discuss that topic, please do it in a new Great Debates thread.

Sorry then, I’ll drop the topic. The last post I made was before I saw this.

[Marley23]

I try to be patient with people who simulpost, but that’s three or four times you’ve ignored my instructions in this thread, Ibn Warraq. I’m giving you a formal warning here. Take the comparative religion discussion to another thread now.

[Erdosain]

@April_R

P.S. I am going to say this one more time so maybe someone will understand,
The Church did not actively campaign against anything, members of the Church did. Individual members, who organized themselves. The Church was not asking anyone to do anything. They did it as individuals.

I’ll note that you’ve conveniently dropped out of the thread, but this is breathtakingly false. Like, bald-faced lie false. The Mormon Church prepared a pro-Prop 8 letter to be read from the pulpit at every California congregation. This was the letter:

[QUOTE=The First Presidency of the Mormon Church]
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
[/QUOTE]

I do hope you come back to this thread because I honestly don’t think you meant to lie. I think you need to seriously educate yourself because you are embarrassing yourself.

[RTFirefly]

@Kimmy_Gibbler

This is so curious: are you calling on the Church to engage in more public condemnation? That you never had any objection to the (caricature* of) the bad old Church’s methods, you just thought the targets should have been different?

No church should seek out targets. But if a particular person has an outsized role in defining the public image of your religion, then maybe you had better think about what sort of impression they’re leaving with people in general, and whether you need to distance your faith from the actions of that person.

• I am not Mormon, but I imagine they, like the many Catholic churches of the world, conceive of their mission not to be “a museum of saints, but a hospital for sinners.” Like any imperfect institution, they (we) do not always live up to these aspirations.

It’s hard to see Mitt Romney as a sinner looking for a hospital. (A sinner looking to deny actual medical care to millions of others, sure, but that’s another story.)

[RTFirefly]

@April_R

P.S. I am going to say this one more time so maybe someone will understand,
The Church did not actively campaign against anything, members of the Church did. Individual members, who organized themselves. The Church was not asking anyone to do anything. They did it as individuals.

OK, let’s assume arguendo that this is true. Then it’s just an outsized effort on the part of individual Mormons to go out of their way to deny secular equality to others.

Either way, it doesn’t reflect well on Mormons or the Mormon faith.

[Rhodes]

@April_R

P.S. I am going to say this one more time so maybe someone will understand,
The Church did not actively campaign against anything, members of the Church did. Individual members, who organized themselves. The Church was not asking anyone to do anything. They did it as individuals. Just like abortion clinic bombers are not acting under the directions or their church. Some members felt strongly enough about this issue to donate time and money to it, but it was not donated by the Church, but Church members.

If you can’t separate that then nothing I say or anyone says or does is going to help you.

And this does have something to do with the original post, because I think the Church felt compelled to issue such a statement because a lot of people in the general public have a hard time separating an individual who practices a religion from that religion as a whole. The Church itself did not support or donate to campaign for Romney any more than it did for prop 8. What individual members choose to do with their money and time in regards to the political process and candidates is their business.

Bullshit. I was a Mormon sitting in the pew when the bishop read the letter from the LDS First Presidency telling us to donate our “time and means” in the fight against equality in CA. This was not just some loose group of homophobes who happened to be Mormons. This was a fund-raising effort handed down by God via His prophet, seer, and revelator.

[RTFirefly]

@Rhodes

This was a fund-raising effort handed down by God via His prophet, seer, and revelator.

Well, then! Mormons are off the hook, because it’s all God’s fault!

[April_R]

@Erdosain

I’ll note that you’ve conveniently dropped out of the thread, but this is breathtakingly false. Like, bald-faced lie false. The Mormon Church prepared a pro-Prop 8 letter to be read from the pulpit at every California congregation. This was the letter:

I do hope you come back to this thread because I honestly don’t think you meant to lie. I think you need to seriously educate yourself because you are embarrassing yourself.

I stand corrected. I would have been upset if that happened in my state. I hope the Church learned from this. But I still stand by my assumption that if I hadn’t voted against gay marriage in CA I would not have been excommunicated or denounced.

[John_Stamos_Left_Ear]

@April_R

I stand corrected. I would have been upset if that happened in my state.

So you’re not upset just because it was in a different state?

[Troppus]

@April_R

I stand corrected. I would have been upset if that happened in my state. I hope the Church learned from this. But I still stand by my assumption that if I hadn’t voted against gay marriage in CA I would not have been excommunicated or denounced.

So you’re cool with legal gay marriages and vote for same, but 100% against church same sex marriages? Just want to make sure I understand where you stand.

[Feyrat]

@April_R

No, Troppus always making comments when I post in threads about my religion just to try and upset me is sour grapes. It has happened before, but this isn’t a pit thread and I don’t care enough to start one in order to elaborate.

Could you please explain how that is “sour grapes?” Maybe you don’t know what that means.

Sour grapes is when someone attempts to make something THEY WANT seem less appetizing, because they can’t have it.

Are you suggesting that Troppus secretly very much wants to be a Mormon, but is disallowed to be one for some reason?

[Erdosain]

@April_R

I stand corrected. I would have been upset if that happened in my state. I hope the Church learned from this. But I still stand by my assumption that if I hadn’t voted against gay marriage in CA I would not have been excommunicated or denounced.

I give you props for owning up to your mistake (not being sarcastic). And no, I don’t think they disciplined anyone for NOT contributing to the Prop 8 movement or for disagreeing with it. But it is an undeniable fact that the Mormon Church and the First Presidency officially instructed all California Mormons to give money and time to help outlaw gay marriage. This was not a grassroots effort; it came from the top down, from the “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators” if you will.

[Troppus]

@Feyrat

Are you suggesting that Troppus secretly very much wants to be a Mormon, but is disallowed to be one for some reason?

Pah ha ha ha

[TokyoBayer]

@Erdosain

This was not a grassroots effort; it came from the top down, from the “Prophets, Seers, and Revelators” if you will.

From the letter you linked to:

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman.

Despite all the spin people wish to make, you are completely correct.

[April_R]

@Troppus

So you’re cool with legal gay marriages and vote for same, but 100% against church same sex marriages? Just want to make sure I understand where you stand.

Yes. Correct. If a church believes that only consecrated marriages are between one man and one woman, then it is not the government’s place to make them change that. Just as it is not the gov place to tell mosques to start having mixed gender prayer services. Or telling Catholic churches to stop teaching the sacrament is the blood and body of Christ.
I am surprised you are inferring that this should be forced or that churches should be made to do these things just because you think they aren’t right or don’t agree with them. That’s fascism.