The Leftovers - book and upcoming HBO series

[EllisDee]

@Dewey_Finn

I vaguely remember a minor scene in which they explained why the friend was living there. It might have involved a parent who is one of the disappeared.

I noticed that On Demand has the entire season, so I FFWDed through the whole season, just watching the Jill/Aimee scenes to see if I missed something. First, there wasn’t much. Watching every one of their scenes for the whole season took less than an hour total, so it’s possible I may have FFWDed past one. Here’s the results of my pointless detective work:

In the first episode, Aimee thanks Kevin for letting her “crash their family dinner.” This wouldn’t really make sense if she were living there, so my conclusion is that she did not live there when the season started.

The second episode is when the kids follow Nora around, when Aimee snags some hand cream from her car. No clues to where Aimee lives, and then the third episode is all Matt all the time as he tries to hold onto his church and fails.

The fourth episode is Christmas, with the baby Jesus being stolen. This is the first time Kevin seems to acknowledge Aimee’s presence, where he fights with Jill (accusing Jill of stealing the baby Jesus), Jill storms off, and Aimee stays sitting on the couch eating a sandwich. Kevin gives her a snotty “Enjoying my sandwich?” that she doesn’t reply to. My best guess is that Aimee moves in right around this episode, either right before or right after. (EDIT: I’m pretty sure this is also the episode where Kevin dreams of a scantily-clad Aimee, who takes him to the woods to talk to the dog shooter guy.)

The fifth episode Aimee is there in the morning – in lingerie of course – so she clearly spent the night. When Kevin goes to Jill’s school to let her know that a GR member was stoned to death, as he leaves he tells her he left money so she and Aimee can order a pizza for dinner that night. So Aimee appears to be fully moved in at this point.

Sixth is all Nora all the time. Seventh episode we see Aimee “come home” from work to the Garveys, which helps explain why she was absent from so many house scenes in the fifth episode.

The eighth episode is Aimee’s last, the one where Jill accuses her of fucking Kevin. (“…on a pile of guns…”) Earlier in the episode, Aimee is at the family dinner with Kevin’s new girlfriend, Nora. Aimee asks Nora about her job, and if anyone ever freaks out. Nora wonders what she means, and Aimee says that “If I lost somebody on the 14th, and then had to answer a bunch of personal questions to get a benefits check, I’d go crazy.” This seems to strongly imply that Aimee didn’t lose anybody on the 14th.

My best guess is that Aimee’s father was long gone (daddy issues, fueling Jill’s accusation), her single mother joined the GR around Christmas, and since she was now all alone Jill invited her to crash at the Garveys’. Whatever the explanation, I find it really cool that even though Aimee moved in with the Garveys during the season, they never explained when or why, and then made her living situation a plot point when she moved back out.

It’s a subtle reinforcement of the “we’re not explaining anything” theme they have going on. (EDIT: Unless, of course, I missed a scene where they explain it.)

[Dewey_Finn]

So what did you think of the last episode? The Guilty Remnant certainly pissed off the rest of the town.

One of the comments to the recap in the New York Times had an interesting idea; that all of the disappeared were people whom the survivors somehow wished weren’t there to bother them. Nora was a little frustrated by her family. Laurie and Kevin’s marriage wasn’t doing well anyhow and so she wasn’t very happy about the pregnancy. Another person who disappeared was the mentally disabled son of another town resident. So basically the disappearances fulfilled the secret wishes of some people.

[Sherrerd]

@Dewey_Finn

One of the comments to the recap in the New York Times had an interesting idea; that all of the disappeared were people whom the survivors somehow wished weren’t there to bother them. Nora was a little frustrated by her family. Laurie and Kevin’s marriage wasn’t doing well anyhow and so she wasn’t very happy about the pregnancy. Another person who disappeared was the mentally disabled son of another town resident. So basically the disappearances fulfilled the secret wishes of some people.

That’s an interesting theory, but it reminds me of how little information the show gave us, on which to base such surmises. The examples you mentioned (Nora and Laurie) are pretty much the only people for whom we know anything about ‘attitude toward their disappeared family members.’

Kevin didn’t seem to resent the woman he slept with, but I guess you could say that someone else in her life may have resented her. But then that raises the question: how would ‘someone resents this person’ be a deciding factor in their Disappearing, considering that few people aren’t resented by someone (if only the person they beat to a good parking space)?

The whole series was such a mess. Damon Lindelof must be the most charming person on the face of the planet. What else could explain the fact that he keeps getting hired?

[Dewey_Finn]

Well, Kevin might have regretted sleeping with that woman.

[Sherrerd]

@Dewey_Finn

Well, Kevin might have regretted sleeping with that woman.

I agree. But my point was, how many people walking the Earth have never inconvenienced another person or annoyed another person or been the subject of ‘I wish I hadn’t met this woman and slept with her’ thoughts?

Only two percent of the population vanished. It isn’t plausible that the other 98% were all people who’d never been the subject of another’s “I wish you weren’t here” ruminations.

[EllisDee]

@Dewey_Finn

So what did you think of the last episode? The Guilty Remnant certainly pissed off the rest of the town.

I quite liked it. The GR’s actions were sufficiently evil to merit beating someone to death with your bare hands, which is always nice to see. A lot of evil in media merits killing, but usually just shooting the evildoer is sufficient. For the GR scum, shooting’s too good for them.

Assuming Kevin’s wish was indeed granted, what could it have been? It couldn’t have been to get Jill back, since he didn’t know she joined the GR. It couldn’t have been to reconcile with Laurie, because after what she did there can never be reconciliation there. It may have been for the son to come home, but I’m unconvinced the son is coming home at all now that he’s with Laurie, a poison pill if ever there was one. Laurie knows without doubt she’s not welcome there. As far as Kevin knew, his relationship with Nora was fine, so she wasn’t part of the wish. Maybe he just wished that the GR would go away? That would seem pretty impersonal, though.

One of the comments to the recap in the New York Times had an interesting idea; that all of the disappeared were people whom the survivors somehow wished weren’t there to bother them. Nora was a little frustrated by her family. Laurie and Kevin’s marriage wasn’t doing well anyhow and so she wasn’t very happy about the pregnancy. Another person who disappeared was the mentally disabled son of another town resident. So basically the disappearances fulfilled the secret wishes of some people.

That’s a very cool idea, but two of the disappearances from the penultimate episode don’t fit that profile: The Asian student who disappeared from Jill and (Tom?)'s circuit, and the woman Kevin was cheating with in the hotel room.

It does fit with the single mother in the series-opener, whose baby’s crying was no doubt driving her up a wall.

The two counter-examples aren’t enough to dismiss the idea, though, because the idea is just too cool.

@Sherrerd

Only two percent of the population vanished. It isn’t plausible that the other 98% were all people who’d never been the subject of another’s “I wish you weren’t here” ruminations.

That’s compelling, unfortunately.

[Dewey_Finn]

Perhaps the people who disappeared were the ones who at that instant someone wished were gone. I’m not sure they’ll ever explore this further, since part of the idea of the show (and presumably the novel) is that the disappearances are inexplicable and random.

As for Kevin’s wish, I think it was to have his family back. And Tommy did return to town. But will he and Laurie move back home? Or will Tommy and Laurie go off together and Kevin and Jill (and perhaps Nora and Christine’s baby) form a new family? Why did the DEA agents who presumably shot Holy Wayne ask Kevin if Wayne mentioned Russia? Do they know something about the reason for the disappearances?

BTW, I don’t know about the rest of them, but the mannequin stand-in for Nora’s husband actually resembled him. And he and Nora’s children were posed as they were when they disappeared. Did the GR go to that much trouble for all of the mannequins they set up?

And where will the show go in the second season?

[EllisDee]

@Dewey_Finn

Perhaps the people who disappeared were the ones who at that instant someone wished were gone. I’m not sure they’ll ever explore this further, since part of the idea of the show (and presumably the novel) is that the disappearances are inexplicable and random.

If we stick with the theme of guilt, maybe those who disappeared were from guilt. Laurie wishing she wasn’t pregnant and feeling guilty about it, Kevin feeling guilty about cheating, Nora feeling guilty about the bad thoughts she had of her family right at that moment, the single mother being driven crazy by the crying toddler and feeling guilty/like a bad mother because of it. The only one that doesn’t fit is Jill’s classmate.

As for Kevin’s wish, I think it was to have his family back. And Tommy did return to town. But will he and Laurie move back home? Or will Tommy and Laurie go off together and Kevin and Jill (and perhaps Nora and Christine’s baby) form a new family? Why did the DEA agents who presumably shot Holy Wayne ask Kevin if Wayne mentioned Russia? Do they know something about the reason for the disappearances?

Actually, thinking more about it, he might have wished to not go crazy.

I maintain that Laurie’s actions are unforgivable, and thus he will never get his family back. He very well may forge a new family with Nora, Jill and the baby, but that’s not getting his family back.

[Sherrerd]

@Dewey_Finn

And he and Nora’s children were posed as they were when they disappeared. Did the GR go to that much trouble for all of the mannequins they set up?

Aside from ‘going to the trouble,’ how would the GR have KNOWN how they were posed when they disappeared?

Even if you posit that Nora, speaking publicly about their vanishing, might have said ‘one minute they were sitting at the table and the next minute they were gone,’…is it plausible that she would have publicly specified the exact seats each occupied?

[DrDeth]

@Dewey_Finn

Perhaps the people who disappeared were the ones …

I will bet they never tell you the answer to this.

[Sherrerd]

@DrDeth

I will bet they never tell you the answer to this.

No one will take that bet.

‘The show is about how survivors react to a phenomenon, not about the phenomenon itself’ is one thing. (Or would be, if the show actually did address the likely psychological aftermath, which I maintain it has done poorly at best.)

But how does that ‘not about the phenomenon’ claim excuse the Losterific “writing technique” of introducing one mystery after another and then ignoring them forever after?

It’s amazing that this is selling. It really, really is.

[Dewey_Finn]

@Sherrerd

@Dewey_Finn

And he and Nora’s children were posed as they were when they disappeared. Did the GR go to that much trouble for all of the mannequins they set up?

Aside from ‘going to the trouble,’ how would the GR have KNOWN how they were posed when they disappeared?

Even if you posit that Nora, speaking publicly about their vanishing, might have said ‘one minute they were sitting at the table and the next minute they were gone,’…is it plausible that she would have publicly specified the exact seats each occupied?

Let’s assume they guessed on the seating position. But that they matched the appearance of Nora’s family probably explains why they broke into people’s houses and stole photos. Perhaps one of the stolen photos showed Nora’s family at the breakfast table. And remember that at the conference Nora attended, a guy was selling mannequins meant to look like one’s departed.

[Sherrerd]

@Dewey_Finn

Let’s assume they guessed on the seating position. But that they matched the appearance of Nora’s family probably explains why they broke into people’s houses and stole photos. Perhaps one of the stolen photos showed Nora’s family at the breakfast table. And remember that at the conference Nora attended, a guy was selling mannequins meant to look like one’s departed.

Yes, I was aware of all that. And also of the fact that the GR members were using their newly-bought church as a space in which to try to match photo-clothing to real clothing, laid out and ready to put on the mannequins when they arrived from the factory.

The “Guest” episode (in which Nora learned about the mannequin business) named a price for each doll that was in the thousands.

From where are the GR getting all that money? Even if each member contributes his or her own worldly goods, they are spending a LOT of cash on their real estate and on their activities. The cigarettes bill alone must be astronomical!

Also: supposedly the GR members were able to get dozens* of these dressed-up mannequins into the homes of their family members at pretty much the same time, without being caught in the act. Are they all ninjas? Is it believable that they could have accomplished this?

*judging from the floor of the church on which the clothes were laid out.

[Dewey_Finn]

I don’t know where the money comes from or how they were able to sneak into people’s houses to accomplish this. But another question. Is the GR a national group, or something unique to Mapleton?

[interface2x]

@Sherrerd

Aside from ‘going to the trouble,’ how would the GR have KNOWN how they were posed when they disappeared?

Even if you posit that Nora, speaking publicly about their vanishing, might have said ‘one minute they were sitting at the table and the next minute they were gone,’…is it plausible that she would have publicly specified the exact seats each occupied?

I assumed they somehow got their hands on the interviews of the type that Nora was conducting with the left over people. Based on the level of detail she was covering, I would imagine that the actual disappearance would be covered in great detail.

@Dewey_Finn

I don’t know where the money comes from or how they were able to sneak into people’s houses to accomplish this. But another question. Is the GR a national group, or something unique to Mapleton?

National, or at the very least, regional. We saw them in NYC when Nora was there.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Boy, reading all this, I’m glad I didn’t stay with the show after the first episode. Sounds like a load.

[Sam_Lowry]

I was a little behind, but I finally caught up and just saw the last episode. I thought it was a pretty good end to the season. Very lucky for Kevin that he killed Patti right before a lot of people had reasons to kill her, so it’s likely he’ll never get caught regarding that. Also Matt is a good friend to come out with shovels and fresh clothes.

Also Meg (the Liv Tyler character) really creeped me out this episode. Both her smile when Jill joined the GR, and at the end with Kevin. It’ll be interesting to see what happens to her and the rest of the GR next.

Regarding who went missing, it’s still just all speculation, people trying to come up with answers, just like in the real world. I’m sure if Nora was one of the disappeared instead of Nora’s husband, then her husband would think that she was gone because he didn’t appreciate her enough or something like that.

I’m interested to see what they do next season. If we’ll meet more characters who had people disappear and see how it’s affected them. Or maybe see how the town moves on after what the Guilty Remnant did. Maybe some new cult will try to move in. I think I read that the book has pretty much been covered, so any thing in next season will have to be new.

@Sherrerd

The “Guest” episode (in which Nora learned about the mannequin business) named a price for each doll that was in the thousands.

From where are the GR getting all that money? Even if each member contributes his or her own worldly goods, they are spending a LOT of cash on their real estate and on their activities. The cigarettes bill alone must be astronomical!

I don’t remember the exact prices, but if I remember correctly, the super realistic mannequins were crazy expensive, but the not as realistic ones were still expensive but not as much so.

Their cigarette and paper pad costs would be high, but everything else would be remarkably low. They’ve been shown wearing cheap plain clothes, eating very basic foods, wearing no makeup, having few cars, and overall no luxuries. And for real estate, while they do have a few big decent houses (and the church), they do pack the houses with a ton of people, so the cost per person for living areas would be pretty low I would think.

@Sherrerd

Also: supposedly the GR members were able to get dozens* of these dressed-up mannequins into the homes of their family members at pretty much the same time, without being caught in the act. Are they all ninjas? Is it believable that they could have accomplished this?

For me, this is the hard to believe thing. They aren’t ninjas, they were normal people just three years ago. But it is possible some of them were caught in the act and we just didn’t see it. That some GR were caught at 2 AM breaking into a house, but most of them weren’t caught until later.

Also, this isn’t the first time they’ve broken into these houses. If my house were broken into and all my pictures of my loved ones were taken, I’d beef up my security by several notches. If my house was broken into and my TV and computer and things were stolen, I’d be shaken and want more security, but I’d be more shaken by this weird cult having been in my house, because as far as I know they might come back and kill me next time. I would have an alarm system, a big barking dog, bushes with thorns by every window, and I’d think there’d be mini-booms in sales for all those things all over town. I was surprised after the first round of break-ins that it wasn’t a bigger thing; I think the only mention we had of it after the fact was Nora mentioning it, but she didn’t seem too bothered by it.

@interface2x

I assumed they somehow got their hands on the interviews of the type that Nora was conducting with the left over people. Based on the level of detail she was covering, I would imagine that the actual disappearance would be covered in great detail.

That’s what I figured too. We’ve been shown that the GR doesn’t have trouble breaking in to places, I’m sure they could have gotten copies of the interviews somehow. And the intervews go super in-depth and have over 100 questions, I’m sure one of those questions was “Describe in detail where the disappeared person was and what they were doing at the time of the disappaerance.”

[Sherrerd]

@Sam_Lowry

… For me, this is the hard to believe thing. They aren’t ninjas, they were normal people just three years ago. But it is possible some of them were caught in the act and we just didn’t see it. That some GR were caught at 2 AM breaking into a house, but most of them weren’t caught until later.

Also, this isn’t the first time they’ve broken into these houses. If my house were broken into and all my pictures of my loved ones were taken, I’d beef up my security by several notches. If my house was broken into and my TV and computer and things were stolen, I’d be shaken and want more security, but I’d be more shaken by this weird cult having been in my house, because as far as I know they might come back and kill me next time. I would have an alarm system, a big barking dog, bushes with thorns by every window, and I’d think there’d be mini-booms in sales for all those things all over town. I was surprised after the first round of break-ins that it wasn’t a bigger thing; I think the only mention we had of it after the fact was Nora mentioning it, but she didn’t seem too bothered by it. …

You raise an excellent point, here. (For me this is yet another example of what seems to be a poor grasp on human psychology by Lindelof and the other show-writers.)

[EllisDee]

Agreed, that was pretty bad.

[BlankSlate]

I was ready to give up on this show, but the last two episodes were pretty compelling.

Does anyone know who played Michael in episode 9? Tom Garvey’s real (?) father? For some reason he isn’t listed in the credits on imdb.