The Lemmings Are Marching to War.

You might want to ask an Afghani woman whether she appreciates what we did. Or, say, someone there who wants to do something radical like listen to music.

Does the U.S. not want to go after state regimes that blatantly harbor and support terrorism? Is that not what was done in Afghanistan, and to that end, wasn’t that objective met?

Yep, we also want to eradicate the perpetrators of Sept. 11, and we haven’t accomplished that yet. They aren’t exclusive to any borders, they scatter like cockroaches, and they take advantage of other country’s freedoms and sensitivities about shedding civilian blood, in order to remain at large and plot against us again.

There is some evidence that we have thwarted other attacks, but it’s hard to know.

Brutus does have a point. It’s quite easy to be the criticizer of action taken, and quite something else to come up with solutions to a problem. My big fear is that something might be coming that makes us all forget Sept. 11, because the damage, loss of life and impact on our society pales in comparison to it.

I see nothing wrong with taking action against a country that professes it wants to kill you all, and is working on the means to do just that. That’s common sense. The rub is, it’s difficult to prove that’s exactly the case with Iraq. I don’t really understand what our hard-on with them is all about.

The lemmings are marching to war?

What am I supposed to picture, Alvin and the Chipmunks with ak47s?

You know, if you’d a said groundhogs, you might have gotten me worried, but lemmings?

I suppose you’re trying to make some reference to the lemmings following blindly and jumping over cliffs, but as a metaphor, it sucks.
It’s an urban legend, err maybe a pastoral legend. Anyway the whole thing started when some naturalist chased a whole slew of 'em off a cliff for a Disney movie, and that’s how the lemmings as blind followers thing got started.

The fact is though that it’s false.
However, on second thought, it’s a good metaphor because the falseness in your assumptions about lemmings mirrors the falseness in your assumption about our behavior.
I’d be willing to guess that you know absolutely nothing about war. Actually, it’s not a guess. I come from a line of military veterans and policeman, and I’ll clear up a misconception for you.

Despite how the media portrays these things nobody likes to go to war. We’re just not walking off to kick ass in a random fashion.

We face a reality today that a small group incapable of creating a conventional threat nonetheless has the potential to wipe out as many of our citizens in a day as died in WWII.

You set off a nuclear device or a dirty bomb in NYC and that’s just what will happen.

One of the great minds or out time, a man who has proven himself a wise oracle over 40 years, and amassed almost 10 billion dollars proving himself right, a man by the name of Warren Buffet, has said that it is “inevitable” that in the near future a terrorist group will get their hands on nuclear device and detonate it in either DC or NYC.

This is what we are facing. This is what we are trying to prevent. We have no doubt of the intentions of men like Hussain and OBL and their followers. They’ve proven them.

However, like most rhetoric, there is a germ of truth in what you say. Many who don’t know better are eager for this bullshit.
That all being said, you’ve made an argument that our current stance is wrong. However you’ve offered nothing as a replacement.
Ok. I’m listening.

What would you have us do?

Well, that door swings both ways, don’t you think? What right of self-defense does Saddam have, now that the leader of a soverign nation has declared belligerance? Do you suspect, as I do, that this smacks of provocation, that we are in fact poking a rabid bear with a sharp stick?

The difference between pre-emptive war and aggressive war is entirely academic. If we accept the premise that pre-emptive war is legitimate, we cross a line. At Nuremburg, we hanged men for crossing that line. We have sworn mighty oaths that we, the palladins of truth and justice, would never cross that line.

Apparently, these obligations are inconvenient and cumbersome.

Scylla:

Am I to understand that you are directing that last query to Yours Truly?

Given you most recently stated personal animosity towards same, I am reluctant to make such an assumption. Besides, that would mean marshalling my thoughts, and assembling the surly brutes into some kind of order. If you really want to know, I’ll tell you, but I’ll assume you don’t till advised otherwise. Besides, theres plenty of ball-carriers on the field.

Nonetheless, the first point would still be Please Let’s Not Do Anything Futile or Stupid That Gets A Whole Lot of Folks Dead.

By the by, your insight into my ignorance of natural history is quite correct, or at least, factual. (We don’t get the Discovery channel here in the trailer park…) Lemmings are, of course, too intelligent to behave like people, and I apologize to all lemmings.

As to military experience, it is quite true that I have less such than Our Leader, who spent several weeks of his destiny-laden life flying to protect the skies of Texas from Viet Cong aircraft.

I remain unimpressed.

I was speaking to you. You apologized. As far as I’m concerned that closes the matter.

As far as George’s war record. Well, he did serve in the military. However, that has no bearing on the current situation.

I was under the impression that we were not discussing the merits of George’s military years, but rather as you put it (if I may paraphrase,) the general hawkish sentiment in our country and its policymakers.

Well, apparently you thought it relevant enough to post it. Relevant enough to insinuate that my argument is weak as a result of my military ignorance, whereas yours is enhanced by some mechanism of heritage.

This kind of thing is why I’m wary of an honest argument with you. Nonetheless, the rules of civility demand that you get the benefit of a doubt.

The record will show that as far back as September, I strongly advised against a militarily oriented policy. It was my position that a war on Afghanistan would not meet our stated aims. It is my position that the war in Afghanistan was a failure. We are no better off than we were. We have several new allies in the ‘Stans whose reputations can charitably be described as “sullied”. Allies we are not taking home to meet Mother.

Do you regard our incursion in Afghanistan as a success? Do you see it as a model to be profitably applied elsewhere?

Our military might is awesome, but musclebound. We are almost exquisitely prepared for a war of armored divisions, on flat plains where firepower is the Goddess of Victory.

But this is a war of rats and weasels. Investigative skills, intelligence skills, these are the coins of the realm now. We need George Smiley, George Patton we don’t.
.

’luc’, I love ya man, and I without doubt agree with the rest of your thesis here, but I think you’ve got some blinders on with regard to the merits of our involvement in Afghanistan. Personally, I take brother Milo’s point in the first paragraph of his post above; there was valid cause for us to remove the Taliban from that benighted country, and there is even greater humanitarian cause for us to remain active in that country.

The stated mission (to find and extract OBL and neutralize al Qaeda) failed primarily (IMO) because of a lack of ground troop commitment prior to the bombing / Northern Alliance campaign. There are times and places which require the big stick, my friend.

But I agree 100% that this so-called war Bush ibn Bush has declared can only be successfully pursued with soft walking, big ears and eyes and limited, strategic application of force. It’s international law enforcement, not combat.

This “war” is just a shell game. An excuse to cram a conservative domestic agenda down the throats of a public purposefully kept frightened, disoriented, and confused by vague rumors of threats and danger.

The more in danger we perceive ourselves to be, the more gratitude we are supposed to feel towards the Bush administration for “protecting us against further attacks”. Naturally it is in their best interest to keep the public scared at least a little. Hence the Justice Dept.'s frequent but totally vague threat alerts, which have instilled rampant fear and uncertainty but have prevented zilch.

Whereas in our real world, it seems that the terrorists shot their proverbial wad on 9/11, have since had their infrastructure blown to shit, and have nothing left but stray bumblers, mental patients, and wanna-bes to throw at us, one or two at a time. Real threatening.

Meanwhile, the Executive Branch is moving army men around on a map to pull at the populace’s patriotic heartstrings (after all, no one wants to be seen as not “supporting our young men and women in uniform” … that would be downright un-American). The war plan against Iraq is a demented, Strangelovian plot to do what Karl Rove and all the rest failed to do in 2000 - get W elected.

And let’s not forget about all that yummy oil. Yum yum, drink it up, gulp gulp burrrrp

elucidator:

Ok, you were against the invasion of Afghanistan, and are against further military action.

Apparently you would have advocated and still do advocate some kind of James Bondish sort of action.

I have no idea what that means.

I guess what I’m saying is that you’ve made it clear what you don’t like, but you haven’t made it clear exactly what you think we should have done, and what we should be doing.

What would be your alternative? What goals should we have pursued, and should we pursue now, and exactly how do you implement that pursuit?

And, I’ll answer your question as directly as I can.

Yes, I think the Afghanistan action has so far been a success. We didn’t find OBL. Most likely he has been blown to bits, buried in a cave, or succumbed from lack of dialysis.

Terrorist camps and training centers have been destroyed. Afghanistan now has a shot at a representative government, and more freedoms from its people while its extremists are severely hampered economically, socially and miltarily.

I certainly wasn’t expecting that American troops would parade down the streets of a grateful nation.

**

You know, when my conservative brethren pulled this shit against Clinton, I thought it sucked and was unworthy. It still sucks now. If you have a “Wag the dog” theory, back it up. The “vague rumors of threat and danger” are backed up by a hole in the NY skyline.

**

I know. It’s too bad we couldn’t have prevented that shoe bomber from blowing up that plane, and it’s a horrible shame that that “dirty bomb” exploded in a major metropolitan area.

**

There’s this country you might have heard of called Israel. Their recent experience would seem to be more than enough to prove the lack of merit in your argument.

**

Do you have the merest shred of support for your little conspiracy theory?

Well, we didn’t take it the last time we were there. Why do you think we’ll do so now?

But, I agree with your statement. Do you drive a car? Do you like heat in your house?

Should we not be defending our oil interest?

Because her name was “Winona LaDuke.” You cannot have, as your Vice President and maybe President, a person who sounds like they’ll drive to their inauguration in an El Camino.

All kidding aside, that’s what you get for having a de facto two party system.

However, I believe the steam will eventually run out of the Bush panic machine; remember, we’re only nine months removed from 9/11. There’s already noticeably less tolerance for Bush’s excesses now than there was six months ago. His agenda will not go unchallenged forever.

Scylla

So much pithy sardonicism, so little argument. Little munchy nuggets of disdain spread through, like a crunchy peanut butter of spite.

But we’ll get to that. First, credit where credit is due. I take it from your concentration on certain aspects of my OP that you find the rest of it plausible, and not subject to contradiction. One is impelled to commend your movement away from the Dark Side (Red Rover, Red Rover, let Scylla come over) Is it calf or lamb we should be fattening for your Prodigal Son party?

Truly, this puzzles me. If OBL is dead, why don’t they pull out the Martyr Machine and capitalize on it? And if he yet lives, why no “neener-neener” video to rub our collective nose in it? But just as you say, we didn’t find him. So, it that regard, the mission has failed.

As to our generous donation of peace and freedom to the Afghan people: that’s as may be. I strongly suspect that the ordinary man-in-the-crater Afghan wishes that all the affected parties – the Taliban, the warlords, the USA – would just go pound burdocks up their respective bungholes and leave the poor bastards alone.

As the Bushistas had posited two goals, and by their own admission neither has been achieved, the mission is a failure.

Oh, my. This is embarrassingly bad. “We” didn’t prevent the shoe bomber attack. The shoe bomb attack failed because it was planned by chucklewits and carried out by a moron. Some greasy, shabbily dressed guy, who looks like he couldn’t afford a subway ticket, much less an international flight, pays cash for a ticket, has no luggage, no visible means of support, isn’t going anywhere in particular for anything in particular…. James Bond my ass, Inspector Clouseau would have been quite adequate.

But then we have “DIRTY BOMB!!! DIRTY BOMB”. Mr. Padilla, we are expected to believe, is the GED Einstein, sent to assemble and detonate a radiological weapon. You don’t find anything suspicious in the timing of the announcement? He might very well have grabbed off ten grand and was headed to America to party down. The Bushistas assure us that we have nipped the plot in the bud, while it was still “conceptual”. We know this because he was ratted out by someone who has been in stir for months.

And that’s all we’re gonna know, because Our Leader has stamped “Bad Guy” on his forehead and hustled him off where pesky questions cannot be asked. Oh, and his citizenship is revoked. Silly me! I had no idea that the President was empowered to do so. But no matter: the esteemed Rehnquist and Scalia will no doubt ride to the rescue.

And following swiftly on its heels….

Exactly how does the miserable situation in Israel impact on his argument? A shred of argument here would have been most welcome. Alas, we must content ourselves with the bald assertion, unencumbered by facts.

And then you round if all off rather neatly.

From faulty premise to absurd conclusion by way of acrobatic non sequitar First, we congratulate ourselves for not baldly stealing what isn’t ours, and then challenge the poster to prove otherwise, in the future tense. Classic Scylla.

Our oil interests? Our naked addiction to mainlining light sweet crude is the source of all our grief. Who was it? You remember, came rushing out as we were gearing up for Iraq 1 (the prequel) and shouted “This war is about jobs! Jobs! Jobs!” Can’t recall, probably spending time with his family.

And when our whorish Congress mustered the courage to consider a rather modest increase in gasoline efficiency, Big Car came running up, blubbering, and threw its arms about their knees and cried out “If we can’t sell SUV’s, we’re toast!” Remember Trent Lott’s inspiring defense of American Free Choice? And the utterly crapulous assertion that it was all a conspiracy to force unsafe little bug-cars on a defenseless public?

Canyonerooooooo-wo! Heeya! [snap] Canyonerooooooooo….

But soft. Enough, I’ve other things to do, errands to run. On my bicycle, by the way.

elucidator:

Thank you for a detailed response to a post not directed at you.

Unfortunately, you missed the one that was.
So, for the third I will politely ask the single question I have of you, in the hopes that you will have something interesting to say.

Exactly what alternatives would you have suggested in lieu of an invasion of Afghanistan?

Again, you’ve slammed the current methodology. Fine. What superior methodology would you prescribe.

Now you may interpretate this wrong, but I mean it sincerely. Can you dispense with the Bushisms hyperbole and word games and simply tell me what it is that you would have us do?

This is the third time that I’ve asked. I’ve tried to be plain, and polite in my words to you, and I’d appreciate a straight answer.

I’d really like to know.

I suspect that you haven’t answered because you really don’t any idea but just enjoy complaining and throwing hyperbole about.

I’m hoping you’ll prove me wrong.

**

As for the psychology of him and his followers, I can’t speculate on why they would or wouldn’t do certain things.

As for the goal, as it relates to OBL, finding him and bringing him to justice in the US was just the first, and most desirable possibility.

The second would be blowing him up and proving it.

The third would be blowing him up and not being able to prove we got him.

The fourth would probably be to render him hamstrung and innefective, if still alive and relatively free.

The fact that we so far haven’t achieved the most desirable aim is not failure. Failure would be if he was still alive and effective.

The most reasonable belief right now is that either we blew him to smithereens, or he succumbed from lack of the dialysis he needed because we had him on the run so long.

In all fairness, it seems like we have a conditional success here, but not the most hoped for outcome.

**

I’m not so sure. The Taliban was about as repressive a government as you were likely to find. The place was rubble before we got there, and we are pouring huge amounts of aid into the place. Women will certainly be better off, as will everybody else save those religious extremists who preferred a terroristic and repressive regime.

The Afghan system has been a divided and feudal one for quite some time. We don’t change it overnight. Nor is it our place to force a carbon copy of our democracy upon them. I think that what we should do is exactly what we’ve done, eliminate Taliban rule and allow self-determinism with strong incentives to a representative government.

Well, let’s define those goals:

  1. Osama (as discussed)

  2. Remove the Taliban

#1 we don’t know, and may not, but it seems likely it’s been accomplished. #2 seems inarguably complete.

What’s the problem?

**

He had more going for him then the guys on 9/11, who perpetrated the biggest domestic terrorist attack with nothing more than cardboard cutters and chutzpah.

**

Absolutely. They couldn’t hold him any longer without formalizing the charge.

**

So, are you suggesting that somehow because they caught this one early that it’s a bad thing?

**

You may have a point there. I don’t know. What I do strongly believe is that a President, any President in a crisis is going to need broad powers of discretion in handling such a crises. The rub is that when all is said and done he should be held accountable for his actions.

**

I’ll do my best to elaborate. I had thought my point was apparent as I wrote it. My apologies that it wasn’t.

The worst enemies aren’t the guys with tanks and missiles and training. They never have been. Such people have something to lose, and something to protect. The worst enemies are the desperate ones with nothing to lose.

A single Palestinian who’s willing to strap explosives to his body, and find a crowded bus, streetcorner, or bar and blow himself up to get a whole bunch of the enemy is an extremely formidable opponent. He can accomplish what a division of infantry can’t.

Israel has been fighting a poorly armed, undereducated, and fiscally challenged opponent for decades, and having a hard time of it. Why do you assume that we will have it any better?

You seem to think that the desperation and the lack of resources of our enemy makes him less dangerous. I suggest that the opposite is true and history bears this out.

**

I think that’s rather unworthy. Think about it and decide if you want to go with it or retract it.

**
[/QUOTE]

I’m really not going to bother with the rest.

Fair enough, with the following quibbles and bits.

I reject the premise that because I assail the stupidity of an action, I am necessarily bound to improve upon it. If you plan to un-pin a hand grenade and stuff it down your pants, I will scream “STOP!”, rather than take the time to write up a position paper. Nonetheless, a quibble.

As to answering posts not directed to oneself, well, now, best leave that alone, don’t you think? This is a free-for-all, in the best sense of the word. Ain’t it cool!

Lastly, am I correct in my assumption that our only point of contention is Afghanistan? Since it is the only point your are arguing, do we find sublime agreement on my other rants? Points. My other points.

As you have addressed yourself to me with perfect civility, I am honor bound to respond accordingly. You will, I am sure, appreciate the strain this puts on me. If my post should break off suddenly, I have probably started to hemmorage. But I shall try.

You will recall, I am sure, that Our Leader, the Man Who Would Be Churchill, began spouting war rhetoric immediately. Alternatives were not considered, elucidator not consulted, grievous errors not amended. But they weren’t listening to Colin Powell either.

I would have treated the matter from the beginning as a criminal action. Bury our dead, bind our wounds, start the clean-up, and pointedly, and publicly, refrain from any precipitous declarations and/or actions. At that point, we had the sympathy and support of the vast majority of the civilized world. How long has it been since we had that?

What an opportunity to join with our fellow nations in information sharing, cooperation, etc. How better to show our friends as well as our enemies that we are firm, sensible, and not to be stampeded into foolishness.

Petty vengeance and rash retaliation should be the province of school boys, not great nations. As a civilized nation, we accept our obligation to humanity not to assume that their lives weigh less than our own. We must accept that our awesome military power imposes an almost unattainable duty to be wise, cautious, and steadfast.

Now: if we had exhausted every avenue short of military action, and had come up short, the question might reasonably arise again. Then the issue would be: is military force clearly necessary to prevent further attacks? Is it clear that our likelihood of success is so high that collateral damage is acceptable? When we know, as we did, that such military goals cannot and will not be met without victimizing the innocent, common decency demands that we be gravely hesitant.

As to tactics? I would first move to fight a war of the “green cards”. I would let the world know that anyone who actually helps us in our struggle will be welcomed instantly, he and his whole family, unto the thirdest of cousins, however removed.

I would throw massive support to the concept of an international court, rather than the willful unilateralism we have displayed. If they won’t execute them, so be it, we are concerned with eliminating a threat, not with retribution. We would have retained the sympathy and respect we had gained, and have exemplified the moral lesson that we will not smite the innocent. Let the evil-doers fear us, and none else.

We would have shown ourselves to be giants: patient, focused, and humane. We would have shown that the world need not tremble before our might, indeed, they might take comfort in knowing that the Superpower is a humane and enlightened nation.

We would actually be the dream that patriots carry in their hearts, and yours truly would dance in the street waving the biggest flag I can find and singing patriotic songs as loudly as my happy voice can muster. Tom Paine will not have lived in vain.

I trust this is sufficient exposition. However, if goaded, I could belabor the point more or less mercilessly, if being dunned into a coma is your idea of a good time.

elucidator:

I’m not necessarily in agreement with anything that I haven’t chosen to address. I’m just picking my spots as it were. Some of what you say may make sense. For instance I would agree that blind hawkishness (and we have a lot of it,) is infantile and counterproductive. Just because we are angry and have a gun, doesn’t mean we should go shoot somebody.

As for our treatment of Afghanistan, I would suggest that we pretty closely followed your strategy. We’ve been working on OBL and his supporters pretty much continuously since the first WTC attack he perpetrated back in '91.

We’ve been applying diplomatic pressures, rallying support among our allies, using economic and even some military oomph to show our steadfastness. The first Bush started it, Clinton followed up, the second Bush continued on, and it didn’t work.

We got sucker-punched.

We know who did it. We know who the supporters were. It seems to me that after the 2nd attack we had no other supportable choice but to do our very best to ensure there would not be a 3rd.

From a psychological standpoint it seems that our enemies are not as enlightened as we. What we might consider admirable forbearance, they see as weakness.

You don’t seem willing to rule out military action against Afghanistan provided it’s justified and that other avenues have failed. I’d suggest that they’ve been failing since '91.

I think that over the last decade we have proved that a diplomatic solution isn’t going to do the job here. Surely you don’t wish to be another Neville Chamberlain.

I’m all for being magnanimous, but this isn’t a misunderstanding, these guys are doing their best to destroy us. We have to stop them, and that means going after them and removing from power the governments that support them.

You seem to be worried that we’re going to go after Iraq. I think we are. I think we have to.

This is not about magnanimity, but common decency. We are obliged by the values we publicly trumpet to regard the lives of the innocent as valuable, perhaps even as valuable as our own, and not some fodder for a statistic about “collateral damage”. Or is it only our blood that cries to heaven from the ground?

I contend that all means had not been exhausted, you contend the opposite. A reasonable disagreement can be accepted, as any conceivable proof is inherently subjective. The same principle applies to the “success” of the Afghanistan mission. You contend it was successful, I contend that it wasn’t. Further, I contend that any military success that takes more innocent lives than actual villains is an obscenity. Your morality may vary.

As this has symptoms of becoming a dialogue rather than a free-for-all, I propose to leave this discussion to others. Largely, you seem unmoved by my brilliance and insight, and I have little doubt you have a similar outlook. If nobody else wants to play, to heck with it.

PS: is there some parallel to Godwins Law about how quickly the Nazis are brought up? Something that applies to spineless milksops who urge restraint in military matters drawing insinuations about Chamberlain? Poor Neville! Did he blow his brains out? Or was it suicide by umbrella?

Go in peace, Scylla, and take it with you. Share it, and you’ll never run out.

Wow. The world is definitely in a sorry state when I find myself agreeing with both elucidator and Scylla as they argue with one another.

There are excellent points made by both of your arguments. America does have a shitty track record of human rights abuses and Constitutional transgressions in time of “war.” See Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus, the thousands of treaty violations with the Indians, and the Japanese internment camps.

On the other hand, the stakes have never been higher. There is a shadowy enemy out there who is targeting our yarbles. We would be fools to ignore any targets that we can see and hit. The Iraqis and their purported intelligence assistance to international terrorists looks like a cockroach begging to be smashed down with that hammer we have, even if our real enemies are the mosquitoes buzzing around us. If just one of those bastards gets through with the right plan of attack, we could be wounded so deeply it is difficult for me to comprehend.

I’m personally inclined to carry on the fight with vocal, loyal opposition when I see my rights and others’ being infringed. But if I were in charge and saw a chance to light some hostile country’s ass on fire, and I thought it would make me more secure, well better them than me. I’ll help clean things up once I’ve wrecked their joint.

Call it, “compassionate liberalism.”

Scylla: so you want a better plan then the current one. How about a global Marshall plan. What would happen if we attempted to improving the standard of living worldwide, so that no terrorists would want to commit suicide? Of course, we would have problems like we did with aid relief in Africa and Russia. On the other hand, we do have an army. What would happen if we as a nation dedicated lots of tax dollars to exporting pork barrells?

Because some of these terrorists hate us for being, basically, ourselves (Alright, so it’s more complicated than that.) No matter how much money you funnel into their homes, they’ll still want to blow us up.

You just can’t rationalize blind hatred. It’s completely illogical, and no amount of discussing will change that.