The looming crisis in human genetics

But “advantaged” is not the same as “best”. It’s surely no secret that life experiences shape people’s personalities. You have heard of the phenomenon of the trust fund baby, who never accomplishes anything of note, because their needs are all provided for? Or the poor kid who learns to struggle for everything, and that propels him to success?

Having the access to first class coaches and first class nutrition is only part of the story. Lots of comfortable suburban kids aren’t going to exert themselves in sports because they have other things they’d rather do, like hang out.

Film at 11:00!

I’m not sure to what you are referring here, but if it’s to the disproportionate underrepresentation of whites in the NBA, are you basically advancing the suggestion that US whites are underrepresented because they are lazier?

Fine. Keep that expression of your agreemenrt out of Great Debates.

It is, however, a way to use name-calling to squelch the discussion, because you can–as Brickbacon actually tried–simply dismiss the poster as [bad label carefully assigned for most effective dismissal] and then refuse to engage the actual posts provided.

Wrong. Calling someone religious might get a limited number of atheists to ignore them, but it is not a societally wide term of disparagement that will kill the discussion.

This is not the forum for name calling.

[ /Moderating ]

Or maybe white guys are busy studying hard for the SATs rather than perfecting their jump shot.

Thing is, no surprises here, it turns out that black folks disproportionately enjoy basketball. We could go into the sociology of it, but American Blacks like basketball, but not cricket or soccer. What’s the genetic explanation for American Blacks sucking so hard at cricket? When right next door, Blacks from the West Indies play cricket all the time?

All of them? :rolleyes: You do realize there are more poor white people in America than poor black people right?

I don’t know, I’ve noticed a certain commonality of muscle type amongst successful basketball players. They look lean and like a coiled spring, as opposed to football players who are built more like tanks. :wink: Then again the NFL is dominated by black people also.

I wonder what the genetic propensity for hispanics in baseball and soccer is?

This seems slightly inconsistent with your earlier comments in the thread? You accepted that the following was not controversial:

You wrote in reply that

That is a more careful and qualified statement which acknowledges differences are in terms of group average. But it still accepts that on average the groups have some inherent or genetic difference?

I’m confused by your confusion. Racism is the belief that inherent differences exist between races that makes them different with respect to abilities and character.

Believing that certain genetic traits correlate with racial classifications is not racism, since merely having a certain phenotype does not necessarily translate into having different aptitudes. Red-haired people have different alleles than blacked-haired folks, but that does not necessarily mean red heads are smarter, stronger, or more hot-headed.

Can you elaborate on why you think there is an inconsistency in what I’m saying?

Chief Pedant, are you going to provide those citations I requested? Or is your entire position just an argument from assertion?

The number of blacks who “enjoy basketball” does not exceed the number whites who also enjoy it. Remember, the population disparity is about 4:1.

The sociology of basketball is pretty simple: it is one of the highest-profile, highest-paying careers in sports. It is for this reason it is sought after as the first choice for so many, of every background. For nearly every player exposed to basketball, the NBA is the first goal, and all other careers rank second. This is true whether the prospect is black or white, and it is for this reason explanations such as “whites have more alternate choices” fail to explain disproportionate representation. While whites do have more alternate choices, those choices are not undertaken until they fail at making the NBA (or fall out along the way because they are unable to compete at the next level).

I think the point here is that the speed of conduction of neurons (quick thinking) or the ability to grow neural maps to record experience (memory) are as heritable as the color of your hair. I have my Dad’s feet for instance. Big knobby feet with long curling toes. My Step-Mom liked to make fun of us for them. Everyone tells me my daughter looks a lot like me. Why is it so easy to believe that follicular structure is heritable but that somehow neural structure follows different rules?

It isn’t. And when you show us a *race * that all has the same follicle structure you might have a point worth discussing. Until then it’s nothing but an argument from ignorance.

Your declaration is meaningless. I didn’t argue from ignorance at all. Nothing I said was incorrect. As you yourself stated. You just needed to make a personal attack in order to validate your feelings.

When I make a falsifiable claim, then you can call me on it.

I have given you a cite for my nurturing example, and you have ignored it.

Here it is again:

Despite enormous and disproportionate nurturing advantage, whites are under-represented in the NBA.

There is no need to find a cite where exactly equal nurturing results in disproportionate outcomes since I have given you one where unequal nurturing produces results in the opposite direction of what would be expected were not genes the principle determinate.

I have given you the cite of my children; I am not sure what evidence you think will help your argument there. They have substantially different skillsets and intellects, and were exposed to substantially the same nurturing.

I have given you the cite of the New Haven firefighters, where the applicants were given identical material to study, time to study and identical exams, and yet a disproportionate outcome was observed.

Here are some examples from the world of academics where similar nurturing–or proxies for it–have not produced similar outcomes:

I have given you a cite of black underperformance on the the MCATS despite four years of similar college prep. Here are the numbers:
Total MCATs: Whites, 28.8; Blacks, 21.6
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table19-mcatpgaraceeth09-web.pdf

I have given you a cite of poor whites performing equally to high-income blacks on the SAT. Here is a link for that:
The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test
“• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.”

I have given you a cite of blacks underperfoming whites on the US Medical Licensing Exam taken at the end of Medical School, 8 years on after the onset of college. All of these 8 years represent equivalent academic exposure and content, and yet the disparity persists.
Racial Bias in Using USMLE Step 1 Scores to Grant Internal Medicine Residency Interviews
“Substantial differences in test performances across racial groups on the National Board of Medical Examiners’ (NBME) examinations, the USMLE’s predecessor, were previously reported.5 In 1988, the overall mean score on NBME Part I was 480; however, African-American students had mean scores that were 100-120 points lower than those for white students. Only limited data on USMLE Step 1 performances by racial groups have been reported. However, analysis of first-time takers (n = 11,279) of the USMLE Step 1 in June 1994 revealed that the mean score for white students was 210, while the mean score for African-American students was 187.2” http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Abstract/2001/12000/Racial_Bias_in_Using_USMLE_Step_1_Scores_to_Grant.21.aspx

I consider it unlikely that any of these will dissuade you. It’s a common practice here on the Dope to attempt to win debates with an endless call for cites as if this were an academic debate. While I’m willing to defend my position within reason, it is tedious to do so for the sake of a single opposing poster. It’s a bit easier for me to simply conclude you will not be dissuaded from your viewpoint, and that is what I have done.

Dude, none of those cites supports what you claimed. Care to try again?

Note that a cohort being compared does not have to be a common genetic family in order for a conclusion to be drawn that an average phenotypic difference between that cohort and another is genetic.

As an example, suppose I looked at the whole world versus the Dinkas or the Bambuti as my three cohorts. The whole world, on average, is shorter than the Dinkas but taller than the Bambuti. And that difference is determined by genes more than nurturing. Yet the whole world is clearly more diverse genetically than either the Dinkas or the Bambuti.

It is not an argument against a genetic explanation to say that a cohort is not a genetic family within itself. The group self-described as “little people” have a genetic explanation for their stature whether or not they are related genetically to one another. They all lack the geneset for being taller.

As I said at the end of the post, no.

So you are totally unable to support the claims you made in this thread. The claims that your entire argument i built upon.

I think that tells us all we need to know about your so-called “scientific” argument.

So what does race have to do with this? I mean, the argument isn’t so much that intelligence isn’t inheritable. It’s that some races are genetically inclined to be smarter than others.

And the prophecy has been fulfilled…

You are fundamentally ignorant about the elementary notions of the brain, and basic neuronal properties. First, here is a picture of a neuron, please learn it as I will be referring to it’s components in this post. The neuron is the most basic functional unit of the nervous system (which includes your brain/spinal cord and all your sensory/motor systems). It receives signals through it’s dendrites and sends them through it’s terminal buttons. Not all neurons look like this (my personal favourite are Purkinje cells), but all/most have these basic properties.

Now, with these things in mind, let’s start…

“speed of conduction of neurons” != “quick thinking”

What Neuroscientists call “conduction velocity,” is a basic property of a neuron’s axon or nerve bundle (a group of axons). Quite simply, it is a measurement of the propagation speed (by distance/time) of an action potential down the axon (An action potential is the chemical/electrical signal that neurons give off when they are excited). Different axon types have different conduction velocities (CV). Think of the axon as a leaky hose (not a perfect comparison, but for all intensive purposes it is very apt); CV is affected by two means: passive and active current flow (usually of Sodium) into the axon (see third picture in my “Neuron link”).

The ways that axons differ in CV, is to either increase of the diameter of the axon (any physic majors out there who remembers “Bernoulli’s principle” will know that this effectively decreases internal resistance to current flow), or to prevent current leakage through the axonal wall by increasing the insulation of the axon by the myelin sheath. Both of these factors don’t different from person to person (unless it’s due to a neuropathological disease like Multiple sclerosis) but from neuron type to neuron type.

“quick thinking” is not a scientifically measurable nor defined property, thus cannot even be studied. It exists only due to our limited understanding of brain function and intelligence.

Learning and memory are theoretical concepts (but much more useful then “quick thinking”) used to explain that experience influences behaviour; they are not directly observable entities. Most Neuroscientists (including me) believe that there is a physical basis in the brain for the function of these concepts. Which leads to studies of synaptic plasticity (Long-term Potentiation/Depresstion) of things like the gill withdrawal reflex of Aplysia (a sea slug with a simple nervous system). However, this all has nothing to do with the “ability to grow neural maps” nor do Neuroscientists have any strong idea to how Learning/memory work in animal/humans other then “it has something to do with the Hippocampus.”

I’ll try not to “shoot at the colleagues down the hall,” but… Psychologists need not know the underlying functions/structure of Learning/memory to study it, as they study **behaviour **and **only **behaviour. The Psychologist approach to this (and other) phenomena is to study/observe:

Step 1. Experience
Step 2. ??? (some unknown internal/biological? things happen)
Step 3. Behaviour

Psychologists can infer or assume whatever they want about step 2, but they can’t study nor observe it. When a psychologist makes some genetic/biological claims about some psychological concept they imposing their field onto others and are naturally stepping outside of what they normally work with; this can lead to outstandingly brilliant realizations or complete crap.

When I see such a stupid article by an Evolutionary Psychologist, I know what I’m looking at.