The majority of French work for the French Government?

[antonio107]

I heard a TV pundit say this, so I’m instantly skeptical. I know the number is probably high, but it sounds unsustainable to have most people in the country working for the civil service. A google search here on my phone reveals nothing confirming nor denying this fact.

What is le Straight Dope?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Define “French Government.” Seems doubtful to me.
I found these two charts:
Number of employed people in France (2008)

Résultats de la recherche | Insee

Numbers are in thousands.
If I add up the first two lines (men and women) I get a total of about 24.5 million.

If I look at this chart, listing government employees

Résultats de la recherche | Insee

The total is about 2.5 million in 2007, which would be 10%.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

Here’s another chart listing employment by category. I’m looking at the last column (2008 numbers).

Résultats de la recherche | Insee

Total salaried people: 23.854 million
Total (including non-salaried): 26.225 million

Categories:
MN Scientific and Technical activities: Adminstrative and Support services 2.8 million
OQ: Public Administration, Education, Health and Social Action 7.457 million
RU: Other Service activities - 1.368 million
Assuming that the last 3 only have government employees, the total would be:
2.8 + 7.457 + 1.368 / 26.225 = 44%

[antonio107]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Here’s another chart listing employment by category. I’m looking at the last column (2008 numbers).
Accueil − Insee − Institut national de la statistique et des études économiques | Insee
Total salaried people: 23.854 million
Total (including non-salaried): 26.225 million

Categories:
MN Scientific and Technical activities: Adminstrative and Support services 2.8 million
OQ: Public Administration, Education, Health and Social Action 7.457 million
RU: Other Service activities - 1.368 million
Assuming that the last 3 only have government employees, the total would be:
2.8 + 7.457 + 1.368 / 26.225 = 44%

I notice that the army isn’t there…so if I replaced “civil service” with the more generic “government,” then…maybe?

[Simplicio]

This graph from the OECD gives 25% in 2004. While that may have changed in the last few years (more from people getting laid off in the private sector due to the recession then anything else, I’d guess) I seriously doubt it would’ve doubled.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@antonio107

I notice that the army isn’t there…so if I replaced “civil service” with the more generic “government,” then…maybe?

After thinking about it some more, I am doubtful that the categories MN (Scientific and Technical) and RU (Other Service) are really state employees.

[Fubaya]

The French civil service is hard to define and can include employees of public corporations and exclude government employees. From what I can tell, even the French are confused by it.

wiki:

The French Civil Service (French: fonction publique française) is the set of civil servants (fonctionnaires) working for the French government.

Not all employees of the state and public institutions or corporations are civil servants; however, the media often incorrectly equate “government employee” or “employee of a public corporation” with fonctionnaire.

google translation of a French site:

What a public servant?

This is not because you work in the public you are bound to be an officer. There are standard categories of government employees who have neither the status nor the benefits of civil service: job security, bonuses, training. Besides those believed to be public servants who are not.

Find the intruder. Who do you think is an official who is not: the nurse, the game warden, the postman, the teller of the SNCF, the military, the controller of the RATP, the nursery manager, EDF agent? All? Error. Under the current definition (see website Public Life) is an official “a person employed and appointed by a public person in a permanent job, and his tenured position in a rank of the administrative hierarchy.” Thus we can describe as civil servants - even if they have a privileged status - the officers of the Social Security and Assedics within private law, agents of EDF and GDF, today corporations ( SA), whose majority stake is held by the State or agents of the SNCF, as a public industrial and commercial (EPIC), also employs private agents.

Another element of differentiation: tenure. The competition is the gateway to virtually forced to work in the public service. If you succeed, you are appointed trainee and stay usually one year. During this period, if you do not matter, you can be fired. You also have the opportunity to leave the administration or your internship can be extended. At the end, you are tenured and valued by the administration that employs you. You then become officially official. Meanwhile, there are profiles of non-incumbents who do not enjoy the same benefits. These are the students (see above), contractors, auxiliaries, contractors, employees of the firm. To have the same status and rights as employees, these employees have the opportunity to spend the assistance of the public.

another translation of the French civil service site

The French civil service, in the strict sense, includes all officers holding civilian jobs permanent state, local government (municipality, department or region) or certain public hospitals.

Some are owners, others are employed by contract (contract).

They work for central government, or for its decentralized services (at the regional or departmental), or in institutions with a mission of public service (social security organizations, educational institutions, research .. .).

In France there are three public functions:

*  the state civil service,
*  Public land
*  Public hospital 

which together total nearly 5 million civil servants.

from that same site, there is a pdf that should give hard numbers but is summarized thusly:

Monday, October 5, 2009
This table aims to put public employment in the total workforce employed. It also clarifies the contours of various public functions, the Public Service of the State, the territorial public and the public hospital. At December 31, 2007, the number of people dependent on government or public administration in which the recruitment of law officer is the general status of civil service stands at 5.3 million, counting the Recipients of employment aidé.Hors subsidized jobs, 5.2 million employees working in France or the Dom.

[Nava]

The numbers can vary widely by whether you consider only functionnaries or add in subcontractors and temporary employees, and by whether you look only at the national government or add in regional and local ones. Do you count companies which are partly or wholly owned by the government or not? Do you count startups which are receiving government money? Public schools? Students and researchers receiving any kind of government fellowships, grants or aid?

Or, putting it in American terms, do you count the rentacops at Penn DOT as “working for the government” or not?

[antonio107]

@Nava

The numbers can vary widely by whether you consider only functionnaries or add in subcontractors and temporary employees, and by whether you look only at the national government or add in regional and local ones. Do you count companies which are partly or wholly owned by the government or not? Do you count startups which are receiving government money? Public schools? Students and researchers receiving any kind of government fellowships, grants or aid?

Or, putting it in American terms, do you count the rentacops at Penn DOT as “working for the government” or not?

Speaking personally:

-Government corporations? Sure.

-Public Schools? Natch. They’re run by some level of government. I don’t think it has to necessarily only apply to federal gov’t workers.

-Government grants to scholars, or business startups? No. I don’t think that entails any employee/employer relationship with an arm of the government (I have a government grant for my thesis work right now; I certainly don’t characterize myself as a government employee, in even the most tenuous sense of the word.)

[Hari_Seldon]

To get an estimate, what percentage of income is paid in taxes? You have to include VAT, which collects more, I think, than income tax in France. That of course, is the answer to a different question, what percent of the economy is the government, but is a first approximation.

[GiantRat]

On a different tack, I’d suggest that darn near everyone works for their government(s) based on taxation. I know that almost 40% of my pay goes to the US government, and about 10% more goes to the (Garden of Evil) State. Tack on unemployment insurance (which I’ve never recovered a cent from, despite being unemployed at times), Medicare/Medicaid, and various other relative frivolities in which Americans are compelled to “invest” without generally being able to see any profit… hell - our taxes end up being as high as Europeans’.

[Ximenean]

@Hari_Seldon

To get an estimate, what percentage of income is paid in taxes? You have to include VAT, which collects more, I think, than income tax in France. That of course, is the answer to a different question, what percent of the economy is the government, but is a first approximation.

List of countries by tax revenue

That’s all tax revenue, including corporate tax and, I presume, local taxes (because the entry for the US says “all levels”). France: about 44%; USA: about 28%

[scr4]

@Hari_Seldon

To get an estimate, what percentage of income is paid in taxes? You have to include VAT, which collects more, I think, than income tax in France. That of course, is the answer to a different question, what percent of the economy is the government, but is a first approximation.

I don’t think it’s a very good approximation at all. The “government” has many revenue sources besides tax. For example, France has a government-owned rail system (SNCF), and I would guess the SNCF workers are counted as “working for the government.” But SNCF had a revenue of $32 billion in 2008 and a profit of $1.4 billion. (Though they did lose money in '09.)

[JRDelirious]

Also there’s the factor of people maybe conflating the concept of “the public sector is the largest employer” (not farfetched) with that of “a majority work for the government”. Also very plausible would be that a majority of organized labor be in the public sector.
Even in the USA if we lumped together all the various decentralized levels/forms of “public” sector activity – judiciary/legislative/executive at all levels of fed/state/tribal/county/municipal + school boards + water districts + public-created corporate entities such as state universities/Port Authorities/mass transit + etc, etc – one could make a case for much larger than expected % of the workforce being in what someone could call “government” work. ( Are Amtrak’s workers government workers? Are the Federal Reserve Bank’s? Are those in the Gaming Board of the Mohegan tribe? )

[Ximenean]

@scr4

I don’t think it’s a very good approximation at all. The “government” has many revenue sources besides tax. For example, France has a government-owned rail system (SNCF), and I would guess the SNCF workers are counted as “working for the government.” But SNCF had a revenue of $32 billion in 2008 and a profit of $1.4 billion. (Though they did lose money in '09.)

$1.4 billion is nothing compared to tax revenue, which is about $2,500 billion per year in France. And I wonder if SNCF really makes $1.4 billion if you take subsidies into account. No, tax is very much the primary source of revenue for a government.

[John_Mace]

@JRDelirious

Also there’s the factor of people maybe conflating the concept of “the public sector is the largest employer” (not farfetched) with that of “a majority work for the government”. Also very plausible would be that a majority of organized labor be in the public sector.

Yep, that was exactly what I was thinking.

[Eurograff]

@Simplicio

This graph from the OECD gives 25% in 2004. While that may have changed in the last few years (more from people getting laid off in the private sector due to the recession then anything else, I’d guess) I seriously doubt it would’ve doubled.

That’s correct. This graph is included in this OECD publication which analyzes government employment. If you click through to the pdf, the question at hand is discussed from page 19 onwards with some quite handy comparison graphs. Thus the answer to OP’s question seems to be, indeed, that about 25% of French labour force worked for the government or public companies in 2004/2005. That number can be contrasted to for example around 15% in the US or about 30% in Norway and Sweden. Of course, the report includes a lot of definitions about what kind of working activity is considered when calculating those figures, so it’s advisable to read the whole thing.

[Ximenean]

@Ximenean

$1.4 billion is nothing compared to tax revenue, which is about $2,500 billion per year in France. And I wonder if SNCF really makes $1.4 billion if you take subsidies into account. No, tax is very much the primary source of revenue for a government.

Correction - $2,500 billion is the total GDP of France. Therefore, tax revenue is about $1,100 billion.

[scr4]

@Ximenean

$1.4 billion is nothing compared to tax revenue, which is about $2,500 billion per year in France. And I wonder if SNCF really makes $1.4 billion if you take subsidies into account. No, tax is very much the primary source of revenue for a government.

My point was that if SNCF is counted as part of the “government”, then the $32-billion revenue of SNCF (not the $1.40billion profit) is one of the non-tax revenues of the “government.” And that’s just one of their government-owned corporations.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Interesting discussion. I knew the French public sector was pretty big but didn’t know just how big.

@JRDelirious

…( Are Amtrak’s workers government workers? Are the Federal Reserve Bank’s? Are those in the Gaming Board of the Mohegan tribe? )

I would say yes to all three - just different levels of government and, obviously, very different functions.