OK, that’s it. I’ve had enough of this Iraq debate. Check out the Marshall Plan and what it did in WWII (anyone needing a cite should be shot)
We’re getting into another Viet Nam? Show me the money the Soviets had to back them up and I may listen. (No, Osamma is not that rich)
Killing Iraqi civillians alongside American soldiers? Unfortunately, it has and will happen. On the scale of previous wars? No. Nevertheless, this would be the weakest link in my argument. However, there is no draft. The military isn’t there to provide the education and health care for free, it’s there because you agree to risk your life when your country calls on you. And I pray you live out your commitment. Thanks in advance.
An aside, why does nobody rail against soldiers killed during training excercises? Are their lives any less important? Or is it because a certain political party can’t be blamed? (Let’s not let time be a factor, go back to LBJ).
Why do we keep having headlines of American deaths? Because it sells to Americans.
Hmmm…was Saddam at all responsible for atrocities? Well, we’ve seen some of what he has done. But what what we haven’t seen was NBC/CBS/ABC/Fox News/ MSNBC/CNN/NPR/PBS…ad nauseum slapping us in the face every night of what happened. Er, wait, the US gets free access to information…sorry, I guess we just misunderstood what was going on there.
Re-elect Saddam. He’s just misunderstood.
And don’t forget to cash that HUGE frigging check we’ll be sending.
Nor the check next year…and the year after…and after that…
Holy shit! I get the smart-ass remark off before what I KNEW I would have to clarify.
I was trying to correlate Hitler and Hussein as power hungry dictators that needed to be taken out so the innocents could live a free life.
The OP was to point out how much less America will lose doing the same job we did in WWII and WWI. ( With utmost respect to all American allies in that war) Um, to all but the French, but that’s another thread.
You’re absolutely correct, doofus. Hitler and Hussein were power hungry dictators that needed to be taken out so the incoherents could live a free life.
Geez, Reeder, if you aren’t going to post something funny, and insist on actually addressing the OP, please put some work into it.
a) it’s obvious that the OP is comparing them. Also note that the word “comparing” is not the same word as “equating”, and it doesn’t mean the same thing as “equating”. He’s comparing the two. He’s pointing out similarities, but that doesn’t preclude you from pointing out differences.
b) To say they aren’t the “same thing” is a perfectly true but perfectly useless statement.
Let’s say that the OP had been about cars. You respond with:
“Are you seriously comparing the new Ford Crapmobile with the new GM Shitbox? They are not…and never will be the same thing.”
Well, duh, of course they aren’t the same thing. That’s the whole point of comparing the two.
If you wanted to make a serious reponse, perhaps you should try actually pointing out the differences between the two, or try scoring obvious hit points against the stupid holes in the OP, e.g.:
“Oh yeah? Well explain why if the Soviets were so rich and Osammma is so poor, how come Osammmma done beat the Soviets in Afghanistan, huh?”
That’s easy: in that war, ObL had the U.S. to fund him. (Of course, there were a lot of other groups we could have funded, instead, but we decided to find the most blatantly anti-American groups with the most rigid philosophy to support, just 'cause we’re nice guys–or because the first bunch of neo-cons to run the U.S. were abaout as straw-visioned as the current crop.)
OTOH, since we tore down the Afghanistan government and never bothered to actually track down ObL, it made perfect sense to go tripping around in some other country that posed no threat to us, then finally announce, after two years in Afghanistan, that now we will go find ObL.
I’m thinking that somewhere out there is a business plan template that goes:
-locate an enemy of the U.S.
-make them your enemy too
-collect money, guns, ammo from the U.S.
-stash the money guns ammo for a few years
-use the money,guns ammo to fight the U.S.
Compare WWII and Iraq II? Hitler and Hussein? Oh, let’s!
Hitler invaded other countries. Hussein, post-Desert Storm, didn’t.
Hitler declared war on the U.S.; Hussein didn’t.
Hitler presented compelling reasons to fight and invade his country; Hussein didn’t.
The U.S. does not are, and never has cared, about tyrants and dictators. The U.S. supports those nations which align themselves with U.S. policy, and does not support those which do not. The current administration had its reasons for invading Iraq, but taking down a “power-hungry dictator” was never in it.
P.S. “Show me the money the Soviets had to back them up and I may listen.” Wha?
I agree. No debate. If the plan was to alienate the world by launching an illegal invasion with the objective of destabilizing Iraq and the region and causing American and Iraqi deaths and increasing anti-American hate and terrorism, then it has worked wonderfully.
On the other hand, if you wish to make comparisons with WWII, then they are not very apt because, the USA, being the aggressor in this war, would be comparable to Germany and Japan in WWII.
Trying to compare Iraq to Germany and Japan in the postwar is equally silly. Maybe Iraq is more like Bosnia in that they are waiting for the opportunity to kill each other. The USA is failing in its attempts to form any kind of stable political system in Iraq and, as soon as anything is announced it is denounced. Ayatollah Sistani has asked the UN to NOT recognise the proposed interim constitution. It’s a mess.
In practice the country and region have been destabilised and the mess will only get worse which plays into the hands of the extremists on both sides (Bush & BenLaden) who believe making things get worse is the only way they can win. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is worsening and the whole region is becoming part of it. By the looks of it things will be getting worse for a while so both Bush and BenLaden are getting what they want. The rest of us just have to suffer the consequences.
Duffer, I think one of the differences between the Marshall plan and WWII and Iraq[sup]2[/sup] is that in 1944-45 America was rising as a Superpower. Today, our Superpower status is waning, especially conserning some of our officials’ behavior in recent years. So at the start of the Marshall plan, there was no doubt it could be pulled off-both capitally and power-wise-whereas today, our economy is the shits(Economy of war my ass), and our governments actions threaten to take us even deeper into the shitpile.
Not just economically, either. Militarily. Politically.
That’s just my take on it. I’m neither a historian, nor an expert in any of the subjects broached, so I may be wrong. Take it FWIW.
The OP might also want to actually read a little bit about the Marshall Plan before going on about how giving billions to Iraq is such a great idea.
First, the Marshall Plan was not a giveaway. Recipient countries had to match funds before they received US aid. Ten percent of the aid was in the form of loans. And the German economy, for example, was in hell of a lot worse shape that Iraq’s was one year ago.
Second, the commitment to Iraq is open-ended, unlike the strict timelines established in the Marshall Plan. The Administration has not been shy about asking for more money in Iraq in January 2005, on top of the $21 billion spent so far.
Third, the Marshall Plan spent about $80 billion in today’s dollars divided among the Western European countries. The $21 billion for Iraq exceeds the total amount of aid given to any one country under the Marshall Plan.
Fourth, Japan did not get any substantial reconstruction aid from the US after the war. On the contrary, the US basically pillaged Japan’s treasury for many years, forcing that country to pay the cost of US occupation forces. My memory is a bit hazy here, but I believe that between one quarter and one half of Japan’s annual budget was used to pay those occupation costs for roughly two decades. Hondas and Playstations, indeed… neither one courtesy of US taxpayer dollars.
