The Memento SPOILERS! Thread [revived zombie]

Seeing the movie forward might indeed present some interesting insight. What really fascinates me about the movie is that the backward storytelling is not some useless gimmick but an essential aspect of the narrative power of the film. it puts in the same frame of mind as Leonard “What just happened?” “How did I get here?”. Certainly if the movie were told in a pedestrian linear fashion it is not a very interesting film.

After seeing it twice I have the timeline pretty well established in my head. I even started to make a website, but have not really had the time to complete it (Stanley Cup playoffs taking up too much of my time :))

You can have a look, but it isn’t even close to be completed

http://www.geocities.com/mementotimeline

Whoops! I had forgotten what Teddy said about Sammy vs. what he said about Leonard (plus paying attention to the images during that entire segment–gotta see it a 2nd time to process it all). Guess you should disregard most of my Sammy comments…

I’m inclined to agree, which makes Baraqiyal’s labor-intensive project seem a bit of a waste (except to glean some continuity elements). After all, we know he’s going to single out Teddy, we know Natalie’s a red herring, so there’s little room for suspense, irony, or drama.

This movie has been compared a lot to The Usual Suspects and I see why: People are overthinking everything, trying to find meaning in every little thing. What’s great about movies like this is that YOUR ending is always the right ending. If you think that there was a Mrs. Sammy, then there was. It’s that simple.

Here’s MY movie:

[list=A]
[li]Everyone seems to ask how he knows he has a condition. Leonard said that learning is possible through repitition (don’t pick up the electrified block). It stands to reason that for several months Leo had to read a note telling him that he had a condition until, eventually, he learned it. It’s not like he had to look in a mirror every 15 minutes to know that he was avenging his wife’s death. If he read that tattoo every day for a month, he would learn it.[/li][ul][li](By the way, did anyone recognise the tester that tested Sammy? He used to be on MTV’s The State and Comedy Central’s Viva Variety. Thomas Lennon is his name, I believe.)[/ul][/li][li]The story of Sammy and the Mrs. is real. There is a real Sammy and he really killed his wife. Also, Leonard’s version of the murder is real and he DIDN’T kill his wife. Why would we have reason to disbelieve the pre-accident memory of Leonard? We have plenty of reasons to disbeleive Teddy. Teddy lied a LOT. (Though i’d have to admit that I wouldn’t want to tell Leo my name was John G.)[/li][li]Leo really did kill John G. already. Obviously Teddy isn’t the John G. John G. was just a cop using Teddy for dirty deeds. The Polaroid of him pointing to his chest seems to back this up.[/li][li]If Leo wants to keep his game going, he shouldn’t have used a license plate number. That REALLY narrows down the field.[/li][li]The scene with Leo and his wife at the end (or is it the beginning?) of the film: He did have his “John G.” tattoos in that scene(his wife was laying in bed with him), but he also has a big tattoo over his heart that says “I DID IT.” I took this to mean that he was successful in his vengence, though some might say it’s an admission of guilt. I think this scene is symbolic of Leo’s goal: to avenge his wife’s death.[/li][/list=A]

I’m happy that there’s another unique film to watch. Hollywood is producing so much crap nowadays. I found out today that they’re making “Grosse Point Blank 2”. It was a fine movie and all, but does it need a sequel?

I’m totally on board with JoeyHemlock’s interpretation of the movie. Except for one minor point.

The reason Leonard took down John G’s license plate number was not to keep the “game” going but to find resolution (at least in his own mind). He looked people in the eyes to figure out whether or not they were lying. He believed Teddy/John G. when he told him how he already avenged his wife’s death, and that he, Teddy, had been pointing him toward other “suspects” all along.
Now that pissed Leonard off. So he decided to take matters into his own hands, knowing that the result would be A) in his mind he would have finally avenged his wife’s death (even though he already did, but he knew he wouldn’t remember that anyway), and B) he could get Teddy to stop fucking with him like that. That’s why the first scene in the movie, (the last scene chronologically) seemed so drastically final, a big sense of closure, if you will.

Yes, I loved this movie too. Almost as much as this thread.

One of my coworkers saw the movie last week and asked me (as I was the one who recommended the movie to her in the first place) whether or not I thought Teddy really was the John G (read: Teddy really did kill Lenny’s wife, etc.). She cited some stuff about the drug deal that he set up at the end of the movie as support for her hypothesis, but I really couldn’t see it.

Personally, I just thought Teddy was a crooked cop. Anybody else come up with the “Teddy killed Lenny’s wife” hypothesis?

Oh, and Baraqiyal, I’d love to see a copy of “your” version of Memento if you could figure out some way to get it to me. (I have DSL, and I’ll assume you have something at least as fast, if that helps.) Drop me an email if you’re so inclined. Thanks.

I recently saw the movie chronologically. I Doubt it would be a sensation if it were actually edited this way. What sets this movie apart is that days later you’re still trying to put the key scenes in context, an aspect that was missing from my chronological version. However, even my version forces you to think pretty hard to fill in the gaps, and is better than most of the mindlessness that gets released.

I see my chronological version simply as an answer to a riddle.

Having just seeing it fresh, I decided to write a synopsis:

Leonard’s wife is killed by a drug addict. Leonard sustains brain damage in the attack, develops his memory problem and is sent to a psychiatric facility. He leaves the facility to find the killer.

Teddy is a con man (possibly a former cop) who tells two drug dealers, Jimmy Grantz and Dodd, that he has a load of amphetamines he wants to sell for $200,000.

Teddy convinces Leonard that the killer’s name is John or Jimmy G__ and that he knows where to find him. He sends Leonard to the drug deal in his place. There, Leonard does what Jimmy expects him to do and kills Jimmy Grantz (Leonard of course believes Jimmy killed his wife).

Teddy comes waltzing in to collect the $200,000. Unfortunately for Teddy, Leonard is still there. Teddy tries to confuse Leonard with a load of bull about how his wife survived her attack and that Leonard really killed her. Leonard sees through this and figures out that the whole thing was a setup. This angers Leonard and sees for the first time the lowlife Teddy really is. He decides to “frame” Teddy for the murder of his wife by writing down Teddy’s license plate number. He knows that when he gets the license plate number back he will think Teddy is the killer (This is evidenced when he says to himself: “Would I lie to myself to be happy? In your case Teddy, yes.”) and finally get closure in his life, also to get revenge for Teddy manipulating him.

Much to Teddy’s chagrin, Leonard takes Jimmy’s car with the $200,000 in the trunk. (This is why, later, Teddy keeps asking for Leonard’s keys)

Leonard puts on Jimmy’s jacket where he finds a note from someone named Natalie to meet him at the bar. Thinking that the note was to him, he goes to the bar. Natalie is at first confused why Leonard is in Jimmy’s car, but eventually figures it out.

Dodd thinks Jimmy took off with the $200,000. He begins to threaten Natalie (Jimmy’s girlfriend).

Natalie hatches a plan to take care of Dodd. She befriends Leonard, takes him home, then verbally berates him to goad him into punching her. She later tells him that Dodd was the one who punched her. This infuriates him, and he goes after Dodd and beats the crap out of him, scaring him out of town.

To return the favor, she asks her friend in the DMV run the license plate number, which comes back to Teddy.

Now, thinking that Teddy is the killer of his wife, Leonard kills him.

The End

Jack Batty, that’s a good interpretation of the start of the Teddy situation. I’m now on board with you.

I hope that when the dvd for this comes out, they have a chronologically correct version of the film on the dvd. This would be super-simple with seamless branching on DVD. Maybe start the movie with the Sammy story and then go through Leo’s escapades. It would CERTAINLY not be as good of a movie, but it’d be interesting for fans of the film to see. Of course, I’m also up for a ton of features like commentaries and documentaries…

Baraqiyal, after seeing the movie a second time I was able to also see that the story was actually pretty simple as you outlined and it is the disorietation of Leonard’s condition (mimicked by the backward editing) that creates the riddles. It is fascinating and I may see it a third time.

I disagree with the thinking that Teddy is lying about Leonard’s wife. I believe Leonard did kill his wife, of course unknowingly, the Jankis was a con-man. Leonard is about the most unreliable narrator after Verbal Kint in the history of movies. His head is all screwed up. He himself says that memories are unreliable and should not be used, yet he bases his entire revenge motivation on his memories. What is Teddy’s motive to lie at that point in the movie? There is none.

And here is an interesting little bit of captured frames from the movie, it suggests (and the website backs it up) that Leonard was the one who spent time in a mental institution.

http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~mperez1/memento.jpg

BTW, there is an interview with writer/director Chirstopher Nolan in this month’s issue of Creative Screenwriting.

The official website, if it is telling the same story as the movie, makes it pretty clear that Lenny killed his own wife (there’s a fragment of a psychiatrist’s report talking about “keeping the disturbing manner of his wife’s demise” a secret from him, lest it upset him too greatly). His “condition” also seems to clearly be psychosomatic. Based on the material in the website, I’m going to make the following, WAG of a diagnosis:

  1. The “sane” part of Lenny’s mind stopped making memories as a result of the combined influences of the blow to the side of the head, and the guilt at being unable to save his wife from enduring a brutal beating and rape. This guilt is exacerbated by the killing of his own wife, to the point that it was impossible for his mind to ever regain normal function, as that would require admitting the truth.

  2. At some point (maybe the point at which, had he not killed his wife, he would have begun to recover mentally from the initial injury) he develops a split personality, with the “insane” part of his mind being able to make memories only after absolving itself of the guilt of his wife’s rape and subsequent death. It wasn’t me/you, it was John G.

The insane part of his mind, in order to further its own agenda of denial, goads him/himself into escaping the hospital to avenge his wife’s death.

Really neat movie. I loved the way it put us viewers into a similar situation as Lenny, of not knowing how we got to where we were (although you had the advantage of at least knowing where we were going).

The whole “Leonard killed his wife” scenario makes no sense whatsoever. If we beleive Teddy there, we have to beleive him seconds later when he says that he helped Lenny hunt down the real John G. If Leo killed his wife, there WAS no real John G. So, logically, Teddy was lying.

Also, if Leo can’t form memories, then how could he make-up the Sammy story? He could make it up, but he wouldn’t remember it, not if it was after the accident. Even if he did, how would he even remember that HE killed his wife with insulin to get that far?

There is no logical way that Leo could have killed his own wife. There IS a logical way that he didn’t: The Sammy story was true, and Teddy was lying to Leo. Why lie? To get Leo to stop with the killings, maybe. To save his own ass, maybe. To fuck with Leo (which we know he liked to do), maybe.
The whole website/mental institution thing: My take was that Leo was in the institution because they didn’t want him wandering around alone forgetting what’s going on every 15 minutes. There’s no one to take care of him, so he goes to the institution. “Keeping the disturbing manner of his wife’s demise” is that they didn’t want to remind him that his wife was raped and murdered. (Though why not tell him either way? He won’t remember it.)

Leo didn’t kill his wife, and the Sammy story is the truth. Even if the screenwriter himself tells me otherwise, this is how it is for me. And if the screenwrite takes sides either way, they’re doing an injustice. The Ususal Suspects director/writer never spilled the beans on what they thought, neither should Nolan.

Well, no. In this scenario, John G. still perpetrated the assault on Leo’s wife and ran Leo’s head into the bathroom mirror. The wife recovered, she couldn’t deal with Leo’s new condition, and tricked him into sending her into insulin shock.

**

Even people who have not had their heads smashed can remember things wrong. I think there’s room to imagine that his memories could have been scrambled after the trauma.

OK, i got a question. Look at the picture that Tretiak as provided us:

It shows Leonard and Sammy in the chair, but then there is a picture of Leonard’s chest with “I did it” on it. Whats up with this? He never has this before (later?) in the movie. Is this him thinking about this, or is this a preview, saying that once he kills John G and get’s this tatoo his wife will take him back (assuming she isn’t dead, which is not a safe asumption, but i don’t believe that it can be ruled out). What the other opinions on this particular tatoo?

Remembering things wrong is one thing, remembering something that happened to you while you had no memory is another. If he can’t form new memories, then he can’t remember the insulin thing at all if he did it. The simplest solution is still the one I outlined above. I still have no reason to beleive Teddy at any point in the movie.

There is a short scene in the film (the end of what we saw) that shows Leo and his wife laying together where he has this tattoo. The Picture linked looks like a still of that scene. Since he obviously didn’t have those tattoos when they were married, and she’s obviously dead now, so it’s obviously a symbolic moment.

Maybe you’re right about Sammy, but there’s nothing illogical about postulating that John G. exists. The news clipping of the attack on the http://www.otnemem.com site includes a sentence where the police confirm there were multiple intruders. Leo shot one to death. The other got away.

I never disputed this. I think John G. DID exist (and Leo already killed him, hence the bloody picture with Leo pointing to his chest).

Wrong. There was a John G that was part of the assault, but the wife survives. Leonard kills her (the insulin incident) much later. Two separate incidents, completely reconcilable.

You have not provided any evidence of this impossibility.

There is less reason to follow this line of reasoning. Why would Teddy lie? He’s the one that’s been encouraging Leonard’s killing streak–why stop all of a sudden? Especially when he’s benefitting from these killings. Given that nobody knows his involvement (except Leonard who can’t remember), he’s not in any danger, so there goes the ass-saving theory. And as far as fucking with him, he does it less than anyone else in the film.

Huh? How about that he had the tattoo, then had it removed (someone does touch that empty patch and asks “What’s this?”) This is consistent with Teddy’s story, that Leonard killed John G, but won’t let the “memory” of his wife’s death go.

Huh? What possible motivation would a cop have for doing the assault in Leonard’s house? Why recruit a “con-man” if Leonard has no memories? If Teddy is the foil for John G, why does he continue after JohnG-the-cop is dead? Sorry, this scenario makes no sense, and is incredibly far-fetched compared to the Teddy-the-cop, JohnG-the-crook hypothesis.

I agree with you about the conditioning-through-repetition, which is why, if Leonard was told about his wife’s death (the insulin incident) enough times, he would absorb that information into his memory–though he distorts it, assigning the action to Sammy since it can’t reconcile with what he “remembers” (his wife’s death in the bathroom).

Sorry ArchiveGuy, but this doesn’t make any sense. Why would he have it removed? That makes no sense. Upon looking back, I agree with JoeyHemlock on this one that it is more symbolic. Remember how in the same “memory division” during the movie it also had flashes of Leonard pinching his wife, then givng hera shot, then pinching her again? I think this was just showing what he wanted to happen, not what did happen.

I agree that it is sumbolic, although of what I have no idea :slight_smile: However, remember when it happens in the timeline, Teddy has toldhim he already killed John G, so he is in his creating an image of completion, with his wife and the tatoo. Kind of completing the circle. Then he stops at the tatoo parlor and he gets the license plate tatoo. But was that always his intention? Maybe he was going to get the “I did it” tatoo as he has invisioned it, but remember the last line of the movie…“OK, where was I?” In front of the tatoo parlor holding a card that says “Fact 6: <lic number>”, ergo that is the tatoo he gets. He has forgotten his intetnion to get the ‘I Did It’ tatoo.

Just another thought. Did I mention how much I liked this movie?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ArchiveGuy *
**

Okay, let’s summarize:
ArchiveGuy’s Version
Sammy Jankis is a con-man and Leo exposed him. And all this time he has backward tattoos reading “John G. raped and killed my wife”, even though she isn’t dead. He even has a big tattoo that says “I’ve done it” on his chest while she is alive (as evidenced by the photgraph of Leo and wife).

Leo walks in on his wife’s rape and murder and gets clocked. He’s laying on the floor with a head injury, watching his wife die. She is rescued before she kicks it, but Leo doesn’t remember that.

Leo now has Sammy Jankis disease. Some other insurance guy thinks LEO is faking the way that Sammy was before. Insurance investegator tells Leo’s wife that he is physically capable of forming new memories, so wife decides on the insulin murder scheme. Leo, who is incapable of forming new memories, somehow remembers this action, but his brain attaches it to Sammy Jankis. The brain even creates memories of Leo in his office with Sammy’s nonexistant wife, even though he is incapable of forming new memories.

Sometime around here, he gets his “I’ve done it” tattoo removed, leaving all the others which are eerily true now.

Leo kills John G. A photo of Leo pointing to his removed “I’ve done it” tattoo is taken as a memento (har!). Leo kills lots of others, with Teddy’s deceptive help. After Jimmy’s murder, Teddy decides to be honest (even though he lied about even meeting Leo only moments earlier) and tells Leo the truth about the past. Leo decides to kill make Teddy the next John G. (end)

JoeyHemlock’s Version
Sammy killed his wife.

Leo walks in on his wifes rape/murder and is clocked. He lies on the floor helplessly and watches his wife suffocate and die, his last memory.

Leo now has Sammy Jankis disease. He slowly “learns” about his condition and tattoos himself to assure he will get vengence. His brain doesn’t make thigs up out of the blue.

Leo kills John G. A picture is taken of him pointing to the area where he wants to get his “i did it” tattoo. Teddy realizes that he can have Leo keep killing and killing be simply not giving Leo the picture. Teddy makes sure that the police report has several pages missing to make the story vague enough to twist around as he sees fit. He pockets it (but gives it back later to regain Teddy’s trust).

Teddy gets Leo to kill Jimmy. When he gets there, Teddy denies ever meeting Leo, but Leo catches his lie. Teddy continues his lying ways and tells Leo several stories, including that Leo killed his wife using the Sammy Jankis method. Leo realizes he’s being fucked with by Teddy, both with the BS stories and the repated killings, so he makes Teddy the next John G. (end)

Well, I think my version is a much simpler explanation, so I’ll take it. If I believed the other version, I’d also have to believe that Chazz Palmentari is Keysor Soze.

I like Joey Hemlocks version also everything seems to fit except the scene at the end when he has the “I’ve done it” tatoo and he is lying in bed with his wife. Without this one image this movie makes sense. But with this image the movie doesn’t seem to work in either incarnation because if Lennys wife dies then how can she lay with him while he has tatoos and if she lives then why does he have a tatto that says John G. Raped and killed my wife.